From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCNpKjpBBoEHoaGGg@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 11:53:02 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc1Jx-0007hs-TR; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:53:02 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf20878518wwb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CGmu8+oNGJzw5MpkC23SKMmTIQQkMNjHgf5nq8exBMM=; b=7IlHG0/2BawgLGITsgXPqRAzu3M1r7FnjR7ZIPsNqXg2DD3M0v9Ca6J3SllNzBhWyK /7IjpCXgCV6zRPpVaHIXtMrSq34nb14v5wF6PUkz3QyfqXKbyS5JSqBU2VaDiVzbhm1j Zr+YnUKRqMELuAzv224ilqChCfrOMQg3UzPW0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=O7n4KwdEy3erklCeJPhwUwDhhkT/HE9MHqNbxqkhuMgvL8a3dW0p+JxSq0BXORn7GU DsfhTyyIaA7ruCDyewdZnGVzU0gc3y+XtwhdNjIZnyk3/FPkqyAQj7mhPfxqBk7Mn7Jw QPmy5jz8fc8k53C6HjvlJu73Kdg1lsBD196hQ= Received: by 10.216.179.137 with SMTP id h9mr3811982wem.4.1294602765334; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:45 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.184.76 with SMTP id cj12ls5443027wbb.3.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.128.7 with SMTP id i7mr972955wbs.14.1294602764519; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.128.7 with SMTP id i7mr972954wbs.14.1294602764472; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f46.google.com (mail-ww0-f46.google.com [74.125.82.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t13si4422105wbc.0.2011.01.09.11.52.43; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.46; Received: by wwj40 with SMTP id 40so19772432wwj.3 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.129.9 with SMTP id m9mr18125888wbs.1.1294602747705; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q18sm19484940wbe.11.2011.01.09.11.52.26 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:52:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D2A11F9.9060007@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:52:25 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 19:22: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:08 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> I mean that because logical connectives reduce to quantifiers, > > Alternatively: quantifiers reduce to logical connectives. Except they don't -- not for quantification over intensionally-defined sets= ("every dog"). You can do without connectives but not without quantifiers= . =20 >> the logically >> most basic Lojban form (out of the one with "ce" and the one with "a") >> doesn't use 'logical connectives' but rather uses quantifiers and, where >> necessary, extensionally defined sets (i.e. sets defined by a list of th= eir >> members). > > I see what you mean. Maybe I shouldn't have used connectives at all: > > do djica ma poi me ko'a jo'u ko'e jo'u ko'i ... > > That doesn't introduce any sets, but it is still an extensional list > with the options. Right. >> My general line of thinking is that when faced with the question "How do= you >> say X in Lojban", you should first of all establish the answer to "How d= o >> you say X in predicate logic". > > Yes, predicate logic with plural reference. (IIRC we disagree about plural reference, but I don't mean to claim that th= ere is no way in which ordinary predicate logic needs to be enriched.) =20 > (There is a lingering problem with the "ce" version, since as far as I > know it was never established whether "ko'a ce ko'e ce ko'i" is a set > with three members, or one with two members, namely ko'i and the set > {ko'a, ko'e}.) Are these unresolved things now finally getting resolved, now that at last = there seems to be a prevailing will to resolve them? --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.