From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDbqajpBBoEtu6TCQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 12:04:57 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc1VW-0008Cu-E5; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:57 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf17626167gyb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dHklgZXJw2pdRm5AwLMsBJEHNV6SSURqlUVQQ2cCULQ=; b=aFg3O+extMBb95JDv59gI9N3GAyl/bqKkyfunXRgZO2HD2haJtH7Irk6YEz1PD/HoW YUfF3Ps2ePNtu9LUWPdtjHdLD16LSXSd9LZ7ZiMV1TXcKxYbBzsWg31h6SEbR1Wsbagp aCxbFmTC3DOEvqCsuokXc4mbNQ+YB2qPla4js= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fn85qtGQBW9TQNUEDq7/DW93n/Rz2A5eZsVHZw8ZdpFjjImCViCTipO7+Lm3xAVOAu q+G56GOw/TsP2jrTCQ7Ui9jIwhBLBs/i7c9bLNtzF8Al9Wjb7W3U1lJ36E86Qeoz4rDB x8+jv1Q3Df/meduAjKHUyRYr+D32s8YeiJdTg= Received: by 10.100.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr852472ani.8.1294603483906; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:43 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.75.33 with SMTP id x33ls1913578ana.4.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.197.11 with SMTP id u11mr2834172anf.51.1294603483220; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.197.11 with SMTP id u11mr2834171anf.51.1294603483193; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i35si11904888anh.10.2011.01.09.12.04.42; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 118 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2011 20:04:41 -0000 Message-ID: <726794.97971.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: O6wLeo4VM1nGIzz7ixTCIIuvVWPZkxt5NBZhGnr1emseI2X dhHUiZtQRO5u1S8Sdjt7jVuAbJeFvFgzJEDgknvPBUGnTr0iX_4x8.Rhk9zN ZgmsV4FABJZ_leek0zi92R6jb9oqvAu5.wgIhHejEsBUb7BIjhO3Ku_vAz9G fQBax9FNx6nb.cV4Nys_wItsaZJ19U6HE4SQGsUfpS0mc67yAQc3lCkJrvLp 2pjElXYGLnrht6rnt5bQgrgfRsjKH4KlnZAs_B4DvMPy0D1hOpLILaJa8FQG Gi8tlyXodfyqeSk5oUcH5O_u3yLTN4DaXoZVHvG0I8Du0YOR3QihhKLwzII9 QXt3rvyRiVp30HLjEBLBc9WESo0VlvV6bCfSni.Rvpca8wpk_icWFsSc36ez 9p6OOezX7PGojsg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:04:41 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 12:04:41 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the issue= of=20 how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over te= h=20 objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 1:22:54 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:08 PM, And Rosta wrote: > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 18:52: >> >> If A, B and C are propositions, and "xor" is the usual binary >> connective, then "A xor B xor C", with either left or right grouping, >> means "either exactly one or all three of A, B, C". (More generally, >> adding more "xor"s, any odd number of the propositions.) But probably >> "... xor ... xor ..." is not meant to be the composition of two binary >> connectives. > > Yes, I know, but hadn't wanted to distract from my main point, which is t= hat > "xor" is an elaboration of "exactly one from", albeit an elaboration that > works only for sets with certain cardinalities. Only for one cardinality: 2. >> I'm not sure I understand the argument. "ma poi cmima X" and "ma poi >> me Y", where X is the set of referents of Y, are exactly equivalent. >> Why is one more basic than the other? > > I mean that because logical connectives reduce to quantifiers, Alternatively: quantifiers reduce to logical connectives. > the logically > most basic Lojban form (out of the one with "ce" and the one with "a") > doesn't use 'logical connectives' but rather uses quantifiers and, where > necessary, extensionally defined sets (i.e. sets defined by a list of the= ir > members). I see what you mean. Maybe I shouldn't have used connectives at all: do djica ma poi me ko'a jo'u ko'e jo'u ko'i ... That doesn't introduce any sets, but it is still an extensional list with the options. > My general line of thinking is that when faced with the question "How do = you > say X in Lojban", you should first of all establish the answer to "How do > you say X in predicate logic". Yes, predicate logic with plural reference. (There is a lingering problem with the "ce" version, since as far as I know it was never established whether "ko'a ce ko'e ce ko'i" is a set with three members, or one with two members, namely ko'i and the set {ko'a, ko'e}.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.