From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCe86jpBBoE7NQ-LQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 14:41:50 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc3xJ-0000Rv-Nu; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:50 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf18193311gxk.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dMsWW4PMjXIba33Rb1dBcNo72+sSCOmBmRE+HBthzxw=; b=n1jijZTTWwSQ8uuhsqugvQgkkvBE+ec3ugEyh4BwMbLKi+y+g7C8zZ3fZTO2vEdcwh avC4OFRwUe96U5Tr5wUd7/BRS3+46RhyLO7HwL+pZ8/yDdJuPcrFCEUmesAVJhDkAGb2 8d9W47IdllU6Z0NN0S5WUN6oopddBd2gEbWt0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VR1sH8S/DkByyFC+XiY1J8I0OoaG93TR3S7rGpa01RBqKGnccwWkGNhEhyl3geI8Ad g36h1L5MRBLkY7sz6S/14wzERrx8XmN9jYxb92d1l46QWMfGoroVrFso4ATG0ffjIcUf olgf2z5NGJecXF1454GXDW9qH/sjBNO7Pv+To= Received: by 10.100.212.8 with SMTP id k8mr83048ang.66.1294612894483; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.55.28 with SMTP id d28ls3759605ana.6.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.192.36 with SMTP id u36mr4873896anp.39.1294612893882; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.192.36 with SMTP id u36mr4873895anp.39.1294612893852; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id w40si11964285ana.3.2011.01.09.14.41.32; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 17845 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jan 2011 22:41:32 -0000 Message-ID: <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: a3YbLnUVM1nLGqcEmLEVok.HYUma4eXLA9KkYQ1N5mBdEc8 CHdQMFHrpZ2Nk2qcppWD6mRb5.6qBlM58.FGn38bWy2wUGPNi8KOUSnbeHq0 uMmXTBL6vPACe4pegojyr1d9Tw35ErpJ6xR.VBx1bZQCofQFqLG5dZT8aLIW 0jFg_Z55hCanTuGWCsXT5Dj9qAYycYEKYI91Evr1345HNJtyHhLF6N94fmPK .qCpXbbDXFUEyQd5C6uQ.ckibtq85vWfT1fBc1_9c0zIfnKGLXCAatmIqPXa SZlAlTheR0RSdvsYu_8v.vRoDfyZxBI3msGUgldj03iaPMb19jsyDv.WXwq6 PIXwdGlFD.SgosRnNtT2SUFvLcn.uPVru8RZwMFVGz3KVij4l_MlZfx1E7iI mCOAw5ySmZUKfxg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 14:41:32 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> <726794.97971.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D2A223F.5040206@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:41:32 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4D2A223F.5040206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the differ= ence=20 is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the ground,= =20 then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have=20 something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they enta= il=20 (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other hand,= =20 mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: >> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the is= sue=20 of >> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over= teh >> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). > > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordinar= y=20 language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.