From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCItqnpBBoERKeb6A@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 17:04:36 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc6BJ-000240-Ts; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:36 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf21111888wwb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PTHEYEmNx1TtefxTSeK7erHiFspXnudzjI4BCVoQG9M=; b=WqqJBCI03st6qckFJlgsTZL6vPoTlES9qBWFhAXT31RzwdKVo5YmZzgZ6Y6MYJzgy8 j781yAeKjZ3dwPwc01gWTzvAqrVwE6OFMypB2YQOjnfo0W2fZtM4YJENaZP711UqWlRG GMkT2mxnqmLlHYoTYFUmDRF6kr229AwdBAPAA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Q7ClzEtb1+e5UpcU5bSMV1yt+7N/kcubB5C+VOHzeo8JydXzaBYig4Gu8dqpRKS3YV L7GH5hdiCJe5XCL0MBgxAigSlXA8v437sDHRuVduTKsLxplCcJwulfYFcGGmIDEp5/b0 Dh6wZqUnaiIs4MQGYfx2IwKAlalXzEQx8YcOc= Received: by 10.216.172.67 with SMTP id s45mr229595wel.10.1294621448406; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:08 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.246.74 with SMTP id p52ls10483068wer.1.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.88.135 with SMTP id a7mr463079wef.5.1294621446824; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.88.135 with SMTP id a7mr463078wef.5.1294621446730; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com (mail-ww0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id d66si2327723wej.5.2011.01.09.17.04.05; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.53; Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18so18612893wwi.34 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.143.18 with SMTP id s18mr17920552wbu.98.1294621445577; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q18sm19654668wbe.5.2011.01.09.17.04.04 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:04:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D2A5B02.4080702@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:04:02 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> <726794.97971.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D2A223F.5040206@gmail.com> <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John E Clifford, On 09/01/2011 22:41: > Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the diff= erence > is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the groun= d, > then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have > something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they en= tail > (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other han= d, > mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. Googling C-sets and L-sets (with or without adding "Lojban") turns up nothi= ng plainly relevant, so I can't respond very intelligently. What I was tryi= ng to say is that in our ordinary conceptualization of the world we do conc= eive of collectivities (that lift pianos, surround things, disperse, weigh = more than any of their members, etc.), and there's a difference between a c= ollectivity whose three members are A,B,C and a collectivity whose two memb= ers are C and another collectivity whose two members are A,B. For example, = if {A,B,C} disperse/diverge, they go in three separate directions, whereas = if {{A,B},C} disperse/diverge, A and B might remain together and jointly di= verge from C. Hence, the need for disambiguable grouping (of 'sets' defined by listing th= eir members) occurs with everyday conceptualization of the world and is not= restricted to some arcane sort of set that nobody needs to talk about. --And. > ----- Original Message ---- > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? > > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: >> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford = wrote: >>> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the i= ssue > of >>> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass ove= r teh >>> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). >> >> You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language >> (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need >> sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and >> "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? > > Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordin= ary > language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. > > --And. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.