From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDxu6npBBoESAus-g@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 17:16:49 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc6NI-0002N7-K4; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:48 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf18262426gxk.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v98ikv350osOFfHHI+TGsg8glUynQ7OrAEpHVEflzho=; b=vxRZ3vqDWe/yAVx2EeUYdVAtCL28HMS42wDvkBsgcZpmqnslYcJsaONnbyhPgiq2rR vXGBxD1qWae9bAQEqLSntZtdVLSS616igXYrpxmQwDwSuqQDT6IMiQ33J1UJoC0XekWl F/q4sJzDK+/FV4sxSx9bMjCtIx7vfC/rx85E0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=zFInNj9PKR9B89NQivG0EZ8QVIX/qi4d58IWKrrmzUnE/pk+Vus6qLPppL/kpJVKJ1 x/+XCOUSJFHaiiTPGS3wFl8r6ujlp7vw0x5f0l87CP32Kta4ZxTuvGFY0dQKsnsh+hcE y3gXjWwDfU/LOQa8HaUtlo9VvpsK6xXPoGQgQ= Received: by 10.100.3.18 with SMTP id 18mr544372anc.79.1294622193479; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.4.7 with SMTP id 7ls919990and.7.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.136.3 with SMTP id j3mr626985and.1.1294622192827; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.136.3 with SMTP id j3mr626984and.1.1294622192805; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id f5si12027667anh.2.2011.01.09.17.16.31; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 71388 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2011 01:16:31 -0000 Message-ID: <281953.68161.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 2UznrJkVM1kexj2GnYfcbj08rI2tIV1g_swMo4B2LADvXkX .n_.2LTH5FTD07NZ5C6O6UZFPkBwFxuEGF5YASFFE.h0voaoWLyI.RZNl0rN vS2t_B0DWeolDYT8N7cLnwQaTuICiE7oQy7E8Jq4V9v6Rqegtwvajorp_bRg .2LV6stVaOSc5qGyIfGIGwmc99aqIPkfxGb6JAHlbSxoAhdvGTzG56dTdX_U C3mV3PDMrEUKhdX4u5bKZsvG4SE.ym2vaBv.qUGy3UFj0yb.eP.ENAgb7zq_ QPMeWfupwklQFL_Q7dqrh8J_JL3K0ShQScE7cjm619JncR1bwT7UKfR5wlJF P8roJWzERobITV6v6W7PC556TF6W5knPRBaRQMS7gSbiRBB_udtEcsKCN9uf 8OzrOoLDPBa63Vw-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:16:31 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 17:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But until they split up, they are not different from the three and after th= e do they are two separate sets, so in what sense is there a {{a b} c } di= fferent from {a b c}? Sent from my iPad On Jan 9, 2011, at 19:04, And Rosta wrote: John E Clifford, On 09/01/2011 22:41: Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the differ= ence is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the ground, then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they enta= il (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other hand, mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. Googling C-sets and L-sets (with or without adding "Lojban") turns up nothi= ng plainly relevant, so I can't respond very intelligently. What I was tryi= ng to say is that in our ordinary conceptualization of the world we do conc= eive of collectivities (that lift pianos, surround things, disperse, weigh = more than any of their members, etc.), and there's a difference between a c= ollectivity whose three members are A,B,C and a collectivity whose two memb= ers are C and another collectivity whose two members are A,B. For example, = if {A,B,C} disperse/diverge, they go in three separate directions, whereas = if {{A,B},C} disperse/diverge, A and B might remain together and jointly di= verge from C. Hence, the need for disambiguable grouping (of 'sets' defined by listing th= eir members) occurs with everyday conceptualization of the world and is not= restricted to some arcane sort of set that nobody needs to talk about. --And. ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the issue of how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over te= h objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordinar= y language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.