From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDLxKnpBBoEpIUtlg@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 09 17:35:25 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pc6fH-0001fR-Do; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:25 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf21185189wyb.16 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=t0rCK+vV1r3yXu26wCyh+lEhNbJ3gL6HqnIHHWg0hjk=; b=LrjQbHIlNbkvBIrgTOBUVKiodSAjxBU4IkssRE1PUA5NIrnTwZaVueSZjOwPBuTPq6 D7+sZx+9SOqrpIw43qhXrPk53p5ZH8wK51RBbv9v9RXznSSaNFSEeX/vH6rmOSvs4J+9 PVKf70KAWGzn3frSj8m2yO+oQp9SghYLVYnuo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sjqYUC+pPu7JfMvnT3HAYnEnqDfARlikvqpn2plAYvejkTJ7sTEt4TKA32yY7m1Ywj Bf9pJFBPcdVlImPeGESTaxEo6vjNLgNddn8rT5+RLRnipmeizKZwLR6sR8xdnLKGS54D BOwvWG2IKf13lnpj8r7RsnP0C1MvSArWwz6X8= Received: by 10.216.39.135 with SMTP id d7mr3848945web.11.1294623307867; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.6.216 with SMTP id a24ls5491839wba.2.p; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.144.71 with SMTP id y7mr991995wbu.13.1294623306923; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.144.71 with SMTP id y7mr991994wbu.13.1294623306860; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f174.google.com (mail-wy0-f174.google.com [74.125.82.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t13si4467815wbc.0.2011.01.09.17.35.05; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.174; Received: by wyb28 with SMTP id 28so20467514wyb.5 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.182.142 with SMTP id cc14mr2250499wbb.215.1294623305668; Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q18sm19671728wbe.17.2011.01.09.17.35.03 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 09 Jan 2011 17:35:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D2A6245.3000207@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:35:01 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? References: <281953.68161.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <281953.68161.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John E. Clifford, On 10/01/2011 01:16: > But until they split up, they are not different from the three and after = the do they are two separate sets, so in what sense is there a {{a b} c } = different from {a b c}? I'm not saying they are different, I'm saying that in everyday thought they= can be conceptualized as different. One wants a language to be able to des= cribe not only how the world is but also -- and, indeed, *especially* -- ho= w we see it. Anyway, as for differences, maybe the groups have names, say. Maybe {A,B,C}= is called "Team X", {A,B} is called "Team Y" and {Team Y, C} is called "Te= am Z". And team mascots, etc. etc. And you know that the dispersal pattern = when Team X disperses is going to be different from the pattern when Team Z= disperses. --And. > On Jan 9, 2011, at 19:04, And Rosta wrote: > > John E Clifford, On 09/01/2011 22:41: > Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the diff= erence > is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the groun= d, > then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have > something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they en= tail > (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other han= d, > mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. > > Googling C-sets and L-sets (with or without adding "Lojban") turns up not= hing plainly relevant, so I can't respond very intelligently. What I was tr= ying to say is that in our ordinary conceptualization of the world we do co= nceive of collectivities (that lift pianos, surround things, disperse, weig= h more than any of their members, etc.), and there's a difference between a= collectivity whose three members are A,B,C and a collectivity whose two me= mbers are C and another collectivity whose two members are A,B. For example= , if {A,B,C} disperse/diverge, they go in three separate directions, wherea= s if {{A,B},C} disperse/diverge, A and B might remain together and jointly = diverge from C. > > Hence, the need for disambiguable grouping (of 'sets' defined by listing = their members) occurs with everyday conceptualization of the world and is n= ot restricted to some arcane sort of set that nobody needs to talk about. > > --And. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? > > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford = wrote: > Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the iss= ue > of > how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over = teh > objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). > > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? > > Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordin= ary > language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. > > --And. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.