From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEJC4rOkEGgRP2OoB@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 06:47:58 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcJ2I-0004rV-FZ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:58 -0800 Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1sf7793925pvh.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=PQW/Ky35yPElvlWmyK6apZZQwsDCQEPXiZP3huHz+ek=; b=k4wX4Hh06faAPjGn57fCIQlwphezmYX20A4hiXmXEJ77ef2khUCtV9cKcP/1iK4eGW 2AusniMuQTbUdXEUHchCB9338rxtW465jCyyQBmm4kGnzF4Vj6a0GctIjPgDcECyJbAb 0qmyeiPHtxU4xLm6PRp9ZD7izY6oCsStgwcQU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=qrc1sKkTRs1HaQLHaH/CAYGhBtC2mh7643MfhIDkIHRaqKsfPKtNNdAwzcI9d6wC5G DFh5k2055DiqRp5E1Ib368tEsXBTXQ2lyFT/i0jzdZc2XV01cg+kJTi/X31eC8HkgPR9 SBiZ4CAJ4XaE0FDB7pF/ryjX3GcpCNARyB0Nk= Received: by 10.142.150.28 with SMTP id x28mr275544wfd.42.1294670864780; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.249.41 with SMTP id w41ls33354676wfh.1.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.165.3 with SMTP id n3mr4397278wfe.13.1294670862684; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.165.3 with SMTP id n3mr4397277wfe.13.1294670862655; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (digitalkingdom.org [173.13.139.234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m3si6019400wfl.5.2011.01.10.06.47.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.234; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcJ25-0004qj-T9 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:47:41 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) Message-ID: <20110110144739.GI6914@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25D915.9080305@lojban.org> <4D25F6F2.7050205@gmail.com> <4D299EA9.7030109@lojban.org> <4D2A04D2.3030600@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D2A04D2.3030600@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 06:56:18PM +0000, And Rosta wrote: > Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 09/01/2011 11:40: > >And Rosta wrote: > >>In English, logical scope tends to be ambiguous, at least within > >>the same clause. So English "not A, B and C" can mean "It is not > >>the case that each of A,B,C is the case" or "For each x, where x > >>is one of A,B,C, it is not the case that x is the case". > >> > >>Unless it has been fixed by recent BPFK action, Lojban has > >>*exactly the same ambiguity* with regard to logical scope > >>between elements that are not explicitly prenexed. (At least > >>Lojban has the option of prenexing to eradicate ambiguity, but > >>it is an option almost never used and that if often used would > >>be received with opprobrium as stylistically objectionable.) > > > >I disagree as to the opprobrium. It is precisely where such > >disambiguation is necessary and desirable that it should be used. > >Having the mechanism means that when it should be used, it CAN be > >used. > > > >This is precisely the same as Lojban having optional tense and > >number. The mechanisms are there when the distinction is > >important, but otherwise can be left to pragmatics. > > Optional tense and number is not the same as optional > disambiguation, IMO. Optional tense and number is simply a > question of how much information to include in one's propositions, > and should be a decision solely for the user, not forced by the > language design. > > In principle, the principal attraction of a logical language is > that it should be unambiguous by default, as unambiguous as it > would be to speak/write predicate logic formulas. I agree. I'm Ok with the default disambiguation being *surprising*, but I'm not OK with Lojban having logical ambiguities by default. Semantic ambiguities are another matter, of course. > Lojban's ambiguities could be (or have been) fixed quite > straightforwardly by adopting the xorxesian scope rules (and also > xorlo). Its more enduring problem IMO is the painfulness of > encoding recurring variables (i.e. argument values that appear in > multiple places in a proposition); it's so much easier just to > resort to vagueness and use implicit zo'e. The difficult part of > designing a logical language is to make it unpainful to use even > when using its logical capabilities. Again: please please please explain what you're talking about here with lots of detailed examples, ideally on a relevant BPFK page. I need to know about this stuff, and you're a great resource. If it'll make it easier for you, we can do a phone call where you bitch for a while and I write everything down. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.