From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEN_QrOkEGgQUARt5@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 07:40:28 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcJr6-0003Uc-5K; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:28 -0800 Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1sf7805121pvh.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=BoLfLcWlWNE2OsJR9ejOavNuiregqrINle/TtdLIV6Y=; b=cvk5rq8qDqQODRE7eBS1sUGjZbmc1cyOe2laa8ctAycFEMdVYs+2T4F8pupWtyKrxy 01BF8NVcbsscyGmBCGaexRDWpxtzy8EEGm3L2kWi2tsOfSX3vZQE0fjBt2yIRwBBq7GJ phMz5+yY0/BQS0TCFyYHqelTGhfD2uiziaqew= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=Wpj4lFFjDRoaBaLDrGBGXhHa6tIW4jxHuDK+BymuCvYFJxjfADlstDbGI1EJhLJsOr lhe1vmxvnLfc3T9FZJXD9w/+d8hV/p97a5bssUvuxSQfdPf9NtDsIt8gBQU7qIOdewEF iJJ9PFK/cG8rDvghqwXr727tcL/qbKoKPw8uU= Received: by 10.143.178.1 with SMTP id f1mr272788wfp.64.1294674015240; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls30609972wfb.0.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.13.14 with SMTP id 14mr4480436wfm.38.1294674013279; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.13.14 with SMTP id 14mr4480435wfm.38.1294674013245; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (digitalkingdom.org [173.13.139.234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m3si6074020wfl.1.2011.01.10.07.40.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.234; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcJqu-0003Tz-GI for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:12 -0800 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:40:12 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Proscriptivity (was Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) Message-ID: <20110110154010.GL6914@digitalkingdom.org> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25F32F.8000209@gmail.com> <4D299E8D.2080107@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D299E8D.2080107@lojban.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 06:39:57AM -0500, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > [this response was largely overcome by the way the thread > proceeded, And Rosta wrote: > >Robin Lee Powell, On 05/01/2011 16:52: > >>Lojban is *FAR* more fully defined than Esperanto. > > > >Natural languages are defined by what their speakers know (or > >do). An invented language may be defined either (A) explicitly, > >by means of formal grammars and suchlike, or (B), like a natural > >language, by what their speakers know (or do). Esperanto is > >defined only (B)-wise. There are some Lojbanists, such as Lojbab, > >who would prefer a (B)-wise definition for Lojban too, > > lojbab wants both. A revised baseline to serve as (A), followed > by "naturalization" a la (B). Unfortunately (I guess), the community has pretty strongly stated its preference for not-(B) (myself included). I've gotten to the point that I don't *ever* want a naturally evolving Lojban, because it will almost immediately lose all the qualities that make me want to speak it. The response to the "you're doing it wrong" thread makes it clear that the (vast?) majority of the current community feels the same way. As an amusing side note, several of us *did* notice a drift in usage vs. the CLL that was decently widespread: we believed that UI ru'e < UI < UI sai < UI cai, but in fact bare UI is (semantically! :) ambiguous. The relevant point is that everybody who was treating it as fixed, when shown the CLL part in question, went "Oh, I was doing it wrong; oops" and not "Well, I guess the book is wrong because most of us were doing it the other way". > >>I can say anything I need to say in Lojban, modulo my own > >>vocabulary knowledge. > > > >It may well be that for any meaning you want to express, you have > >a way of expressing it and find that others will understand you. > > Which is ultimately what language is all about. Are you saying I'm fat? > In short, until someone actually DOES produce a demonstrably more > excellent (A), claims that it would be "easy" to do so are indeed > both hollow and insulting. *Thank* you. :) -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.