From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDg_6zpBBoEz1NMhg@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 09:20:55 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcLQJ-0006Vi-6E; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:55 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf18677717yxn.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Nb8jkMUjjQImial4H2FlK4lc8Mu6BwJ7Tr2ySPLbwJc=; b=4vnWl3NNuX4Hy29vBC+zY5TCgut1ej/h5WuwPGE+jSeHQEegPIyfn8WYTsdexD1GqX vy8D1+4R7iWlMt8Yjsh05CWkAwOlQennxYkx3elM+b85S/YiB8ACTMZbikWJfiJSEVU/ 5L5BWnRi36nyBrNKhxM2HfFK78sV3C6lWerM0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Q2vF81Cna/NyUxl2jiWt+TeamT/xRE6VtayDZEoEvTM7pjHtKH7LPCh5Pk1YSALxQE K3RNEGMt1FrMDtJbuZ6w0HwNU4F56toAnAmtuxIAeP6eC1YilFRaThjwEifQCcW/0KDe A6rDw8cWKDCYfdLI3wDqguSK3dhVcHKDyYTa4= Received: by 10.151.135.1 with SMTP id m1mr2173062ybn.65.1294680032978; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.197.14 with SMTP id u14ls4024553ybf.7.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.110.173 with SMTP id u33mr2905565yhg.4.1294680032116; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.110.173 with SMTP id u33mr2905564yhg.4.1294680032092; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n47si83110yha.2.2011.01.10.09.20.30; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 68993 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2011 17:20:30 -0000 Message-ID: <441529.68363.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: wqJ2IGQVM1nQFBXH7y3SfqLWGxXx6vwIVwOwcVIpA04bW.i lOdQpKJqrPl3ZMCKJ.6ddDbmdqlMd8p0G4l5q36NeP9ngEenknd4va6JmHBY oQHAL5rWtfKT9RdWEvh5NbwIph.KdHsStt2NSywc5_AefM_vq84a_w75ETAQ VEZqzb4pced7T7.yyRJzlcVYCt7MCm5vlmeDsZyC8QbEvD0VLq7kKYqsR6p0 mZ3MQ73aC7Hxz6Pgq5Ycjx_yr3vulMjDHlbilun4.YITHvg4BfLQpyZzgwg2 jjwpt03owLWYIG7gmvIVbb0lka8KMQaiOTrA1QtJZ7oAwiigCYoLXaI.9ihb bKiyAXIrtgEGwjSZZUlBTMA6nom0KbKk36RM6Vfq71jt_k.5FJG3IFE1Ulgs J8ndIZVpVVLp8 Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:29 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <4D25CFD8.6010408@lojban.org> <63371.11455.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20963.85801.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <913593.57689.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299F91.2020308@lojban.org> <20110110145240.GK6914@digitalkingdom.org> <592786.85574.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:20:29 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: Out of the mouths of babes (was Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Skimmed a bit. So far mainly Mother and Investigator and very early child, but I expect to find something closer to the target age as I go along -- and less of Mama. But it is still (so far) all in forced, interview environment, so not truly representative. Still, better than naught. ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 10:57:43 AM Subject: Re: Out of the mouths of babes (was Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) It does. Look at it. On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:25 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > I think that just pulling out the words or concepts would not do the trick. We > need to be able to cover what the child *says*, not merely the words s/he uses > individually, especially since the words turn out in context to have a variety > of meanings, often far from the base. I haven't look at the db, but if it does > not include conversations -- and fairly long ones at that -- it will ultimately > not be satisfactory (that is, it wi;; leave it open for critics to say we have > not made our case.) > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Robin Lee Powell > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 8:52:40 AM > Subject: Out of the mouths of babes (was Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop >saying > that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) > > On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 06:44:17AM -0500, Bob LeChevalier, President > and Founder - LLG wrote: >> John E Clifford wrote: >> >Portable recorder (a pen size say) and transcription at the end >> >of each day. Textbooks cover very little of a typical >> >10-year-old's life, nor would adding in books, tv and games cover >> >the whole very well. >> >> I believe that there already exist such corpora; I had access to >> one several years ago, called CHILDES. I don't remember the age >> range. >> >> http://childes.psy.cmu.edu/ seems to be the current site, and it >> looks like they've accomplished a lot since I last looked. > > That looks really complicated. If there's a way to extract "here's > a list of words/concepts that any language should/must be able to > easily express", I don't see how to do it. If you could explore the > site to find that, it would be really helpful. > > -Robin > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.