From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDSia3pBBoEoKRjzQ@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 09:41:56 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcLkb-00062C-PC; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:56 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf6357452pwi.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RErMwRoJh7CC2mLqn9oSDpZiyXRfk7hZq+2y2AVo83w=; b=pYg8Eourufvmtz8WaziGg3IeqO+giavrm/zSUlPijBotIsRF1Wa7mZ5hFGRwzRbUAq SqY/Qe3ctfEX9HqLzZAzXWKrd8dHRmYeCV1Zz6kOuTK1aGrwDloxCircSr3m3RJN7syT pqUg3DUBPEJQZYNuFIHlmbL2VICg0snY1XDXI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=FRHyAsoqILwmyodLO/V5Nl36aqUNuJKfF49U2YmTqF9hhmIbjfzn3uuEdabusA671w hK+MEGl/sT6j9ZZH4L+g2kNlz5SWxoBS/PvQrxa51vf1YRIK5NclxHyFeKnU5F1hu/++ BNfIPdZL/3lEw8G0uSDQIZ15rIpZOy6yRS09w= Received: by 10.142.149.20 with SMTP id w20mr292909wfd.17.1294681298121; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.249.41 with SMTP id w41ls33556125wfh.1.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.81.21 with SMTP id e21mr4515520wfb.28.1294681297220; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.81.21 with SMTP id e21mr4515519wfb.28.1294681297186; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-px0-f169.google.com (mail-px0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id f13si6186454wfo.4.2011.01.10.09.41.36; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.169; Received: by pxi12 with SMTP id 12so4770543pxi.0 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.131.7 with SMTP id e7mr4802819wfd.316.1294681294774; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.103.17 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:41:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> <726794.97971.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D2A223F.5040206@gmail.com> <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:41:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd29cbcac28140499817a4f --000e0cd29cbcac28140499817a4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mekso won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish {a,b,c= } and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, and c" and "the se= t containing the set containing a and b and c", which is absolutely terrible. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford wrote= : > Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the > difference > is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the groun= d, > then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have > something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they > entail > (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other han= d, > mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? > > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford > wrote: > >> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the > issue > of > >> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass ov= er > teh > >> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). > > > > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language > > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need > > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and > > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? > > Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in > ordinary > language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. > > --And. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd29cbcac28140499817a4f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mek= so won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish= {a,b,c} and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, = and c" and "the set containing the set containing a and b <amb= iguous pause> and c", which is absolutely terrible.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, Ja= n 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, that depends on what you are out to do. =A0In particular, if the diff= erence
is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the ground,=
then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. =A0If you have something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they enta= il
(most of it with little direct relevance to real life). =A0On the other han= d,
mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets.



----- Original Message ----
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.= com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br>
Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?

Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:= 19:
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo.com> =A0wrote:
>> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then = the issue
of
>> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to b= e (I pass over teh
>> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too).=
>
> You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't real= ly need
> sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko&= #39;e" and
> "ko'a jo'u ko'e"?

Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordinar= y
language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with membe= rs.

--And.

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