From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC1sa3pBBoEuOIoDw@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 11:06:45 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcN4i-0008AP-Bp; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:44 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf68970393qyk.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MvCUW6FV7aXKuzYQLOGhaA1pz1ehpG7diSNE38TnzOA=; b=30pUAVgRnTMv+ylQACoSynO7Ii+a5d43BR4HQnIez3thZqgxzd5YS4+Z4c1v7NfUYJ u20ACMTpjfumx678P4BcegukEroYSKUABqh4D7XLd2Vnr65TEbLlmZZy7XG7zB4RF0k1 3bEf3a7w/XYQ7RNF1j/4V10K9MZqsuiy1UD9Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NydoAKQjaD3CHhjOQOcLkJjtY9Q7QuLjQpI3HALVw2WR6ZrogR4EC7OeXZNmm4Xzv+ OL8a+YN4WPeHa7RoSHAPCTfd+Z3qRhr7lZOmJWwLJwTUYwsRJVsl8mCFSQ+pDub9RqKV L4lgJ4iUxOIabcpEtaJ7PL6Zu9oNXwXKarkY0= Received: by 10.229.101.158 with SMTP id c30mr4118970qco.44.1294686389836; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.195.134 with SMTP id ec6ls7949358qcb.2.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.32.6 with SMTP id a6mr3088265qcd.8.1294686388605; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.32.6 with SMTP id a6mr3088263qcd.8.1294686388544; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l11si5582856qcg.0.2011.01.10.11.06.27; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.44; Received: by mail-qw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 2so4160025qwi.3 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.95.200 with SMTP id e8mr25140569qcn.213.1294686387060; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.213.204 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:06:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <615081.13893.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <673286.9022.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <294930.94884.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D299D75.9090608@lojban.org> <4D29FF11.4080306@gmail.com> <4D2A0799.7000809@gmail.com> <726794.97971.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D2A223F.5040206@gmail.com> <422992.17584.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <615081.13893.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:06:26 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you explain exactly what L-sets and C-sets are? I don't get them. --gejyspa On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Why do we need to, C-set theory aside?=A0 Most of the examples given seem= to > be cases where some items in a bunch also go by another name in a differe= nt > context, but are still functioning as in this group in this case.=A0 So w= e can > say {a b} is in {a b c} but just now is not functioning as a separate ite= m > but as a part of the whole.=A0 I have nothing against C-sets and (finally= ) > know how to use them for the various purposes for which we want sets of s= ome > sort (or not, as xorxes would insist) in ordinary language, but these all > turn out to be easier and more natural with L-sets (or plural reference). > > ________________________________ > From: Ian Johnson > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 11:41:34 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? > > If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mekso > won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish {a,b= ,c} > and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, and c" and "the = set > containing the set containing a and b and c", which is > absolutely terrible. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford > wrote: >> >> Well, that depends on what you are out to do. =A0In particular, if the >> difference >> is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the >> ground, >> then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. =A0If you hav= e >> something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they >> entail >> (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). =A0On the other >> hand, >> mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: And Rosta >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? >> >> Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: >> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford >> > =A0wrote: >> >> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the >> >> issue >> of >> >> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass >> >> over teh >> >> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). >> > >> > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language >> > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need >> > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and >> > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? >> >> Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in >> ordinary >> language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. >> >> --And. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.