From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDztq3pBBoERcN40Q@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 11:18:28 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcNG2-00007a-IF; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:28 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf18893970gxk.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NrrhGj84Xs6i8V5E3TM7FaNPJKwBpYNJcLUPjubq3/U=; b=1rdwqvYVp8hrLPT3ppBtpl6P/iJy1cjLTAuMVqDobdJtRROBVSx5qT0AuGVSlJlh+K UxBob/DNBGosf6weIOxfltU/2q8+OruVyqCwCrV80/B4FJtxITp35QTyql0XcJg92hRQ Cb0Ap7eLs5QqND9laE13xouWnq3cBZfjKYJpw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=DDInPEQ6dZHHMMbXzRFsgc6Z5+vXjE1cJHxwz1fVz8v/MUbxqaz8gBxAxYNtDjcLva 55LZqz+LFCy1TuCSOq4K7H+fi5Q9wftN1USghksFOSBdIBUfla26qcGar/kjnCedR+eM i2XbgUPCy1tcqKnhfFFuE5G5wfntv7V7wJqGw= Received: by 10.151.19.3 with SMTP id w3mr2152713ybi.67.1294687091605; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.48.32 with SMTP id v32ls10963958ybv.3.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.111.44 with SMTP id v32mr3579855yhg.19.1294687091026; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.111.44 with SMTP id v32mr3579854yhg.19.1294687090970; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n47si94640yha.2.2011.01.10.11.18.10; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20110110191810.RCJZ18557.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:18:10 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id tvJ91f00Y3Xcbvq02vJAGb; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:18:10 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=K6H15zDybEznVbWvwx3O4PPp0p/D2/5TW7WmbNpAZQA= c=1 sm=1 a=3AcGvHZOwucA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=CTpMlxIOd2fDckB_UO8A:9 a=4IN5VrkdR1ubudxT5Eg-fcuai-EA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D2B5BAC.8020102@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:19:08 -0500 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Proscriptivity (was Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)) References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <4D25F32F.8000209@gmail.com> <4D299E8D.2080107@lojban.org> <20110110154010.GL6914@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20110110154010.GL6914@digitalkingdom.org> X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Robin Lee Powell wrote: >>lojbab wants both. A revised baseline to serve as (A), followed >>by "naturalization" a la (B). > > Unfortunately (I guess), the community has pretty strongly stated > its preference for not-(B) (myself included). I've gotten to the > point that I don't *ever* want a naturally evolving Lojban, because > it will almost immediately lose all the qualities that make me want > to speak it. The response to the "you're doing it wrong" thread > makes it clear that the (vast?) majority of the current community > feels the same way. > > As an amusing side note, several of us *did* notice a drift in usage > vs. the CLL that was decently widespread: we believed that UI ru'e < > UI < UI sai < UI cai, but in fact bare UI is (semantically! :) > ambiguous. The relevant point is that everybody who was treating it > as fixed, when shown the CLL part in question, went "Oh, I was doing > it wrong; oops" and not "Well, I guess the book is wrong because > most of us were doing it the other way". That's fine by me. My desire to have (A) as well as (B) is so that (A) will naturally serve as a check on too rapid and unnecessary drift via (B). Because constructed languages like Lojban don't have a large usage base or a long history, in areas where the language is NOT explicitly defined, natural evolution probably takes place exceptionally quickly (I almost said "unnaturally quickly" which would be a self-contradiction %^). Even with CLL defined, I suspect that there have been real natural changes in the language since 1997 ("natural" meaning to exclude changes like xorlo that were instigated intentionally to cause change). You've identified one that was caught, but there are probably numerous others that aren't direct contradictions of anything in CLL but are different from whatever was conceived of in the design. >>>>I can say anything I need to say in Lojban, modulo my own >>>>vocabulary knowledge. >>> >>>It may well be that for any meaning you want to express, you have >>>a way of expressing it and find that others will understand you. >> >>Which is ultimately what language is all about. > > Are you saying I'm fat? Who would I be to say something like that? > *Thank* you. :) You're welcome, doi jatna noi mibyja'a zo'o mi'e lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.