From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD9_K3pBBoEGS7k_g@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 10 13:47:55 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PcPah-0001ya-RA; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:55 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf18551713gyb.16 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rRXiNRm1KIBlaFbpixne+ioFvdCnjt0DM4BICi3rSSs=; b=XdCTyqC3Z6Eec6Mw4uxb+Xtzft80cQBviJphP+/IJNdp57o2XNKkymcgD25yopboXR LVH/CLvLNBe1LnAOY9QCThnrKCjeKNme554KDrOt9XIp/996b3GGjeV0QZT1HULBVnMn T/P6bqOYByK8wHdCrPMhhzY82u20b18YeWrfo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j7e1h2lryfPCKT1H7vdViqci39DkN+S7js4IFiMbX7DZvEk+wrMcNJDIoE+5R1NfeV lTu5hsQnGBUmp/uQbPmGLNaW65k9YpveON4IxQv62UBfei+okvVl70SDAAhZ2IqlbnBU QC7NRMLWTU3rSA09F2aYKD77g8cQbZMToGCzY= Received: by 10.150.149.20 with SMTP id w20mr2198232ybd.45.1294696061012; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.6.39 with SMTP id 39ls8387720ybf.4.p; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.102.143 with SMTP id d15mr3606375yhg.12.1294696060403; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.102.143 with SMTP id d15mr3606374yhg.12.1294696060340; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n47si107454yha.2.2011.01.10.13.47.39; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 59526 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2011 21:47:38 -0000 Message-ID: <831936.58945.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4Htu93UVM1koNWtJKY0Wr_.Z3QEBrVgpKDW6s5CYeK.0yQM 2oPsW91ScgPakbyKjl.nydQ1Nt0bWakpJK0igq6KIoWIX7DH0CtaHxQP6X.j CISBIhPOQXafWRPVefZP0RtQ3WtfIbTvw2iFa7OjMkElWm2VYmcQi7B4_wms 5YLd4eeU0MTWWu6v_zcKauTObz.Xy2.0iYotYYyzvnuG.9my1e.h8KleNHWg ihNlMN8QVqGJFu6E5sRcKXxYvBCiDwVWdGcEDvt71Da5SS9b2EcOVjf6fdBN zFLtn1iFvP.QSNMZ.El5qJ95OnlPSrVqfeB0zQIRIw.vSWuwllidyrHYFo1U 5yVAYRHo_pTOyIqGf33eo6cTGE73UUVKIOs1tCodUMwWLW0qrGwyZMbPmNXQ jt_RnHYwYuATe Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:38 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:47:38 -0800 (PST) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable pckipo.blogspot.com for a short, disorderly discussion. Any set theory bo= ok for C- sets. The Wikipedia on mereology is good on L-sets, though doesn= 't call them that. Someplace in the archives is an extended discussion of = plural reference which is the xorxes' version. Sent from my iPad On Jan 10, 2011, at 13:06, Michael Turniansky wrote= : Can you explain exactly what L-sets and C-sets are? I don't get them. --gejyspa On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: Why do we need to, C-set theory aside? Most of the examples given seem to be cases where some items in a bunch also go by another name in a different context, but are still functioning as in this group in this case. So we ca= n say {a b} is in {a b c} but just now is not functioning as a separate item but as a part of the whole. I have nothing against C-sets and (finally) know how to use them for the various purposes for which we want sets of som= e sort (or not, as xorxes would insist) in ordinary language, but these all turn out to be easier and more natural with L-sets (or plural reference). ________________________________ From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 11:41:34 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mekso won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish {a,b,c= } and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, and c" and "the se= t containing the set containing a and b and c", which is absolutely terrible. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford wrote: Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the difference is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the ground, then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they entail (most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other hand, mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets. ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream? Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 09/01/2011 20:19: On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford wrote: Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the issue of how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over teh objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too). You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and "ko'a jo'u ko'e"? Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordinary language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members. --And. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.