From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBD7y73pBBoEp4UoiQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 13 12:52:28 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PdU9f-0003qO-0c; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:27 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1020997ywh.16 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XpATDe0UAZPnFqScIlOFL8O18MGsWV2cF5BjLbTkgag=; b=bAiVtV/XJtvVpd67vfexObn40wXBnwSksUI1RJF6nzfWknMImJsjcsiCaEFzpQmXin rvkxHNgEE+HgHk4O9yMsEtM8cPyJ2nfEoiqmQ1guvHwn+c6KC75deNcazxoS23CG/0Ho latLZQacfdfEA0N8VKDr/RfTamc804PgOrbu0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=L6y8uazdr4IJGTsUVSlNLpy9wdaV+aMDhITQ9tDO3NwGTiLEA/II44UrZdr9O92BrQ z/tYTsHze4otXpYV8fKF8wzzBm8602zomZNlBJmxFPn7076ZrUWd7p2Y2mEE6QiPdAS+ rc1LxQi+WYZLntZGYLvzTJ6j+NECpJMS3MElE= Received: by 10.151.116.16 with SMTP id t16mr11844ybm.64.1294951931954; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls488403ibi.2.p; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr1780212ibd.9.1294951931375; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr1780211ibd.9.1294951931322; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f178.google.com (mail-iw0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j25si92101ibb.0.2011.01.13.12.52.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.178; Received: by iwr19 with SMTP id 19so2053262iwr.23 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.1 with SMTP id n1mr2949325ibd.0.1294951930115; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110113024007.GE1262@alice.local> <20110113193746.GB2132@digitalkingdom.org> <20110113201519.GD2939@alice.local> <20110113202905.GH2132@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:52:10 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] will you help me understand BAhE+BU? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215046b87cbb97c0499c07d56 --002215046b87cbb97c0499c07d56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why can't UI modify UI? ro'a is in UI and it modifies UI in it's own way. I think the main reason that nobody wants to move ba'e and friends into UI is that UI comes AFTER the word that you want to modify so all the text that's out there with {ba'e} coming BEFORE the word to modify would have to be either retro-fitted or left in a (now) wrong state. On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: > On Jan 13, 2011, at 15:29, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > Well, {ge'e} being exactly that was my point there; {ba'e} is *very* >> generic emphasis. As far as I can tell it's actually pretty >> un-Lojbanic; it seems to mean "I'd verbally empasize this if I was >> speaking English". >> >> je'u works; {.o'o cu'i} works, others. >> > > > (This is my first comment on this topic.) > > I first saw the relevant meaning of emphasis as "This is the part of my > utterance which is actually interesting, as opposed to being required for > context and grammar." Which neither of your suggestions really conveys. > > I now note that this is almost-but-not-quite {bi'u} or possibly {jo'a}. > > If I were making arbitrary changes, I would keep ba'e as a word, but move > all of BAhE (ba'e and za'e) into UI3a next to {bi'u}, thus simplifying the > grammar. What you lose is the ability to emphasize (not important) or mark > as nonce (possibly very important) a member of UI, since you can't modify a > UI with a UI (right?). > > -- > Kevin Reid > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --002215046b87cbb97c0499c07d56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why can't UI modify UI? =A0ro'a is in UI and it modifies UI in it&#= 39;s own way.

I think the main reason that nobody wants = to move ba'e and friends into UI is that UI comes AFTER the word that y= ou want to modify so all the text that's out there with {ba'e} comi= ng BEFORE the word to modify would have to be either retro-fitted or left i= n a (now) wrong state.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Kevin Reid = <kpreid@switchb.= org> wrote:
On Jan 13, 2011, at 15:29, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

Well, {ge'e} being exactly that was my point there; {ba'e} is *very= *
generic emphasis. As far as I can tell it's actually pretty
un-Lojbanic; it seems to mean "I'd verbally empasize this if I was=
speaking English".

je'u works; {.o'o cu'i} works, others.


(This is my first comment on this topic.)

I first saw the relevant meaning of emphasis as "This is the part of m= y utterance which is actually interesting, as opposed to being required for= context and grammar." Which neither of your suggestions really convey= s.

I now note that this is almost-but-not-quite {bi'u} or possibly {jo'= ;a}.

If I were making arbitrary changes, I would keep ba'e as a word, but mo= ve all of BAhE (ba'e and za'e) into UI3a next to {bi'u}, thus s= implifying the grammar. What you lose is the ability to emphasize (not impo= rtant) or mark as nonce (possibly very important) a member of UI, since you= can't modify a UI with a UI (right?).

--
Kevin Reid =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0<http://swit= chb.org/kpreid/>


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