From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDXtcnpBBoEurXpVg@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 15 18:41:45 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PeIYl-00062S-QI; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:45 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf2457652ywh.16 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=B2vf0hcL5Nw7dEBlH6u7EwWeqIheokViGsau6A9UufE=; b=wc3zkjapEV1xq5IeUNlMUEB0k6JE/qC/5PneBpcV7HGrds+s/JwJYHDvt0IpTqwkTG 3wk2AEjSn5GC9rbiO16pWDR590eq6WeydJFBxkKLHCYLDekKimtQe7q11m8NJxZB31Ph nO44LJktV+Oke0RgdEKLdbs7dKsRd9yeyxcZY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=qvTlgwZ1Q2v+jDlsm+4eyf26JW1NzSExk5XSUNLMMifM3vtpyQYDI3cqFrhj4/cMIo Mjk3a5UAFyV8RCaNQ2IIt5GzYxp9mQmrRPe0NxbP3vTAL7eG23Nl7sC/u97/TCzAuz9O dcqBK5sJZ2bA9qTQiAEgl+KslWIYBLx2ZnfWk= Received: by 10.151.63.8 with SMTP id q8mr224520ybk.83.1295145688024; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:28 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls3930949ibk.3.p; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.203 with SMTP id i11mr678115ibd.16.1295145687371; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.33.203 with SMTP id i11mr678114ibd.16.1295145687252; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si746553ibq.7.2011.01.15.18.41.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so4110726iwn.0 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.206.206 with SMTP id fv14mr2521802ibb.75.1295145686053; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:41:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110116022720.GD7994@alice.local> References: <20110116022339.GC7994@alice.local> <20110116022720.GD7994@alice.local> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:41:26 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] question about ku From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba4fc2328cb6790499ed9ae0 --90e6ba4fc2328cb6790499ed9ae0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I know how {ku} is supposed to be used, what I'm asking about is how it works (as in, how does the grammar know what to do with {ku}). I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citka pu ku lo cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left until we find a LE and then terminate that" which would result in two sumti {lo nu citka pu} followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpretation of it being a single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}. I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar directly for these things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:27 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > dur: correcting myself, it's mentioned: > > http://dag.github.com/cll/10/1/ > > I did a terrible job of looking. :-) > > -Alan > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > > Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL: > > > > http://dag.github.com/cll/20/ > > > > selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10) > > > > Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end of > > a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate > > that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natural > > language-style negation. > > > > I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}, > > but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. I'm happy I found some > > mention of this usage. > > > > -Alan > > > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that {ba} > expects a > > > sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi xagji} and > that > > > putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} is just a > way of > > > saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or something". But the only way > of > > > getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} is special > in > > > that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But that > doesn't seem > > > right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in the case of > {mi ba > > > [ku] citka lo plise}? > > > > > > I wish I understood PEG better. > > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1] > blindbravado@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unrelated > selma'o, > > > though. > > > > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2] > lukeabergen@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't know why it just occurred to me but... what exactly is > "ku" > > > terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is there an implicit "lo" so > that > > > parsers see this as /really/ being something like "baloku mi > citka"? > > > Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I didn't know that BA had > a > > > terminator... either way something feels strange. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [3]lojban@googlegroups.com > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com > > > 2. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com > > > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > 6. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 7. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba4fc2328cb6790499ed9ae0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know how {ku} is supposed to be used, what I'm asking about is how it= works (as in, how does the grammar know what to do with {ku}).

I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citka pu ku= lo cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left until we= find a LE and then terminate that" which would result in two sumti {l= o nu citka pu} followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpretation= of it being a single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}.

I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar= directly for these things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:27 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodoc= kikumazvati.org> wrote:
dur: correcting myself, it's mentioned:=

=A0http://da= g.github.com/cll/10/1/

I did a terrible job of looking. =A0:-)

-Alan

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote:
> Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL:
>
> http://dag= .github.com/cll/20/
>
> =A0 selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10)
>
> =A0 Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end = of
> =A0 a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate<= br> > =A0 that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natur= al
> =A0 language-style negation.
>
> I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}= ,
> but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. =A0I'm happy I found som= e
> mention of this usage.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:
> > =A0 =A0This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that= {ba} expects a
> > =A0 =A0sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi x= agji} and that
> > =A0 =A0putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} i= s just a way of
> > =A0 =A0saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or somet= hing". But the only way of
> > =A0 =A0getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} i= s special in
> > =A0 =A0that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But t= hat doesn't seem
> > =A0 =A0right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in= the case of {mi ba
> > =A0 =A0[ku] citka lo plise}?
> >
> > =A0 =A0I wish I understood PEG better.
> > =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1]blindbravado@gmail.com>
> > =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unre= lated selma'o,
> > =A0 =A0 =A0though.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0mu'o mi'e .latros.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2]lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I don't know why it just occurred to me but...= what exactly is "ku"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is the= re an implicit "lo" so that
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0parsers see this as /really/ being something like = "baloku mi citka"?
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I = didn't know that BA had a
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminator... either way something feels strange.<= br> > >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [3]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den<= /a>.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
> >
> > =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google Groups
> > =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> >
> > References
> >
> > =A0 =A0Visible links
> > =A0 =A01. mailto:blindb= ravado@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A02. mailto:lukeabe= rgen@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A03. mailto:lojba= n@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> > =A0 =A06. mailto:lojba= n@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A07. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A08. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
>
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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