From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERCUx8npBBoEJR0pKQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 15 19:19:03 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PeJ8q-00074O-6p; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:19:03 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf2959685gyb.16 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LQaPMqe/EcbrvJTITW0xO/h0UEDb5YaBp+pexqY4o9o=; b=Ml4t7nLtYAUlizmcOr4Tjv78CSIHLUZZusIQMkkZ6sNL/0+dgJTkvO2qgqxgXCzo2e Q5WuWRBl5H4fIf6zznFPv0iB7tmd0QWhZyV993iq6C6FW++SBtUajyMg0BgA7SjdNm0P PlDwbNhhNXFhzfgTh7LQvvgNF3e8+vHZ3Kdtk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=C+3zNTU79TsCUS6/7HGrListzgwovGoE78avwNVuVQ8VBYgtAiAHIZvPeZSxQGpDep g+CZEcqVsB3WgGO90eojBRPC9tNzABLBrYV+crQy+HDuswy15FXNBOjelY2Wl0n9/rQC fHbscYPVkc7CeW1THCfWmp49RQewW9B7tXG4I= Received: by 10.151.94.4 with SMTP id w4mr227985ybl.56.1295147924408; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.200.3 with SMTP id eu3ls3942272ibb.1.p; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.39.73 with SMTP id f9mr698265ibe.17.1295147922479; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.39.73 with SMTP id f9mr698264ibe.17.1295147922438; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si755587ibq.3.2011.01.15.19.18.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by mail-iw0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 6so3548110iwn.1 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.34.65 with SMTP id k1mr2571795ibd.9.1295147921268; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.153.199 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:18:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110116022339.GC7994@alice.local> <20110116022720.GD7994@alice.local> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:18:41 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] question about ku From: Ross Ogilvie To: lojban X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532c9d4c75ff40499ee1f40 --00221532c9d4c75ff40499ee1f40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To the question of "how does the grammar know?": it knows because a rule has been explicitly put in the grammar. As Alan has found already term-1 <- ... / ( !gek ( tag / FA-clause free* ) ( sumti / KU-clause? free* ) ) / NA-clause KU-clause free* and the other places KU is used sumti-5 <- ... / quantifier selbri KU-clause? free* relative-clauses? sumti-6 <- .../ (LA-clause / LE-clause) free* sumti-tail KU-clause? free* / ... This shows the uses of KU: to close a NA, as an alternative to a sumti after a FA or tag, to end a quantified sumti that has no LE or LA and finally to close a LA or LE sumti. I'm not sure if this answers your question. The other interpretation of your question I thought of was "How does the grammar know that we are using KU one way or another?". The answer is that PEG parsers are greedy, ie that they will try to make the current rule they are dealing with as long as possible. To use your example {lo nu citka pu ku lo cidja}. When the parser is at pu, it is processing the rule term-1. It has matched the {pu} as a tag. So then it tries to match ( sumti / KU-clause? free* ). It fails to match a sumti, because no sumti begins with {ku}. Then it has the option of matching a KU-clause, which it does. Then it fails to match any frees. At this point it has successfully matched a term-1, so it goes back to try to match whatever rule had the term-1 in it. If it was not greedy, then yes it might decide to end the bridi after pu and use the ku to close off the lo. This is one of the reasons that ellidible terminators are difficult in the EBNF grammar (or so I am lead to believe). Hope that helps. mu'o mi'e ros On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I know how {ku} is supposed to be used, what I'm asking about is how it > works (as in, how does the grammar know what to do with {ku}). > > I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citka pu ku lo > cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left until we find a LE > and then terminate that" which would result in two sumti {lo nu citka pu} > followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpretation of it being a > single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}. > > I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar directly for these > things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi > > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:27 PM, .alyn.post. < > alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > >> dur: correcting myself, it's mentioned: >> >> http://dag.github.com/cll/10/1/ >> >> I did a terrible job of looking. :-) >> >> -Alan >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: >> > Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL: >> > >> > http://dag.github.com/cll/20/ >> > >> > selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10) >> > >> > Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end of >> > a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate >> > that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natural >> > language-style negation. >> > >> > I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}, >> > but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. I'm happy I found some >> > mention of this usage. >> > >> > -Alan >> > >> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote: >> > > This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that {ba} >> expects a >> > > sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi xagji} and >> that >> > > putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} is just a >> way of >> > > saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or something". But the only >> way of >> > > getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} is special >> in >> > > that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But that >> doesn't seem >> > > right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in the case of >> {mi ba >> > > [ku] citka lo plise}? >> > > >> > > I wish I understood PEG better. >> > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1] >> blindbravado@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unrelated >> selma'o, >> > > though. >> > > >> > > mu'o mi'e .latros. >> > > >> > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2] >> lukeabergen@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > I don't know why it just occurred to me but... what exactly is >> "ku" >> > > terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is there an implicit "lo" so >> that >> > > parsers see this as /really/ being something like "baloku mi >> citka"? >> > > Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I didn't know that BA had >> a >> > > terminator... either way something feels strange. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > Groups "lojban" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to [3] >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > [4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > Groups "lojban" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "lojban" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > References >> > > >> > > Visible links >> > > 1. mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com >> > > 2. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com >> > > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > > 6. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > 7. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > > 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > >> > -- >> > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >> >> -- >> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221532c9d4c75ff40499ee1f40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the question of "how does the grammar know?": it knows because= a rule has been explicitly put in the grammar. As Alan has found already
term-1 <- ... / ( !gek ( tag =A0 / FA-clause =A0free* ) ( sumti / K= U-clause? free* ) ) / NA-clause KU-clause free*<= br>
and the other places KU is used
sumti-5 <- ... / quantifier selbri KU-clause? free* r=
elative-clauses?
sumti-6 <- .../ (LA-clause / LE-clause) free* sumti-tai= l KU-clause? free* / ...

This shows the uses of KU: to close = a NA, as an alternative to a sumti after a FA or tag, to end a quantified s= umti that has no LE or LA and finally to close a LA or LE sumti.

I'm not sure if this answers your question. The other interpretatio= n of your question I thought of was "How does the grammar know that we= are using KU one way or another?". The answer is that PEG parsers are= greedy, ie that they will try to make the current rule they are dealing wi= th as long as possible.

To use your example {lo nu citka pu ku lo cidja}. When the parser is at= pu, it is processing the rule term-1. It has matched the {pu} as a tag. So= then it tries to match ( sumti / KU-clause? free* ). It fails to match a s= umti, because no sumti begins with {ku}. Then it has the option of matching= a KU-clause, which it does. Then it fails to match any frees. At this poin= t it has successfully matched a term-1, so it goes back to try to match wha= tever rule had the term-1 in it.

If it was not greedy, then yes it might decide to end the bridi after p= u and use the ku to close off the lo. This is one of the reasons that ellid= ible terminators are difficult in the EBNF grammar (or so I am lead to beli= eve).

Hope that helps.

mu'o mi'e ros

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen <= ;lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I know how {ku} i= s supposed to be used, what I'm asking about is how it works (as in, ho= w does the grammar know what to do with {ku}).

I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citk= a pu ku lo cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left u= ntil we find a LE and then terminate that" which would result in two s= umti {lo nu citka pu} followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpr= etation of it being a single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}.

I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar= directly for these things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi
<= div class=3D"h5">

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at= 9:27 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>= wrote:
dur: correcting m= yself, it's mentioned:

=A0http://da= g.github.com/cll/10/1/

I did a terrible job of looking. =A0:-)

-Alan

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote:
> Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL:
>
> http://dag= .github.com/cll/20/
>
> =A0 selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10)
>
> =A0 Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end = of
> =A0 a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate<= br> > =A0 that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natur= al
> =A0 language-style negation.
>
> I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}= ,
> but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. =A0I'm happy I found som= e
> mention of this usage.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:
> > =A0 =A0This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that= {ba} expects a
> > =A0 =A0sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi x= agji} and that
> > =A0 =A0putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} i= s just a way of
> > =A0 =A0saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or somet= hing". But the only way of
> > =A0 =A0getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} i= s special in
> > =A0 =A0that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But t= hat doesn't seem
> > =A0 =A0right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in= the case of {mi ba
> > =A0 =A0[ku] citka lo plise}?
> >
> > =A0 =A0I wish I understood PEG better.
> > =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1]blindbravado@gmail.co= m>
> > =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unre= lated selma'o,
> > =A0 =A0 =A0though.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0mu'o mi'e .latros.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2]lukeabergen@gmail.= com>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I don't know why it just occurred to me but...= what exactly is "ku"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is the= re an implicit "lo" so that
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0parsers see this as /really/ being something like = "baloku mi citka"?
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I = didn't know that BA had a
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminator... either way something feels strange.<= br> > >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [3]lojban@googlegroups.com<= /a>.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den<= /a>.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com.=
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
> >
> > =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google Groups
> > =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> >
> > References
> >
> > =A0 =A0Visible links
> > =A0 =A01. mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A02. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> > =A0 =A06. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A07. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A08. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
>
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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