From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCHi8rpBBoEOvSkiQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 15 21:43:51 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PeLP0-0007Cm-VU; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:51 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf2984552gwj.16 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KRWEA8DliHP2LiUD2o6rwrlsx3ouQ+L6+62KaQy8DCs=; b=p46gDhmQ089P+jPmejKcmhTfHWkR5n6OklRnm7rXop6HKhLMZe0hdTfkQIjSFmesWv vXpt39QINdusrOceJJ1qgXIg6n4UCYaYDWQuLhcaTkOWSoUx+Nb+npyvoyHlM0MBPQLD TvV1tzaFTfQ+dSLkh9kNz77UFw8X0fBdAPq0M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=BnPnAyuzVsXtvr9TZ0pZ3qRXT0ERuMaS7XRkFjynlpI7qiCsKB4QYtzaz5fR4PUnbQ DPAQ1855zus9LxcFgoVWVLmKopEPKiTureybtPUGK7mpq4m9f/zrt5zyg3zyhSVgWYUq ePlfzdIQbwCaiuc/0Nc5gjhTyqlayu8qkS8H8= Received: by 10.146.83.5 with SMTP id g5mr182451yab.12.1295156615489; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls2479041ibi.2.p; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.206.76 with SMTP id ft12mr709267ibb.14.1295156614783; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.206.76 with SMTP id ft12mr709266ibb.14.1295156614700; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f179.google.com (mail-iy0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m30si785684ibu.2.2011.01.15.21.43.33; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.179; Received: by mail-iy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 19so4537194iye.24 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.206.206 with SMTP id fv14mr2645210ibb.75.1295156613182; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110116022339.GC7994@alice.local> <20110116022720.GD7994@alice.local> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 00:43:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] question about ku From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba4fc232db75680499f025d1 --90e6ba4fc232db75680499f025d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ok, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't know PEG so using an example helped. Thanks. On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > To the question of "how does the grammar know?": it knows because a rule > has been explicitly put in the grammar. As Alan has found already > > term-1 <- ... / ( !gek ( tag / FA-clause free* ) ( sumti / KU-clause? > free* ) ) / NA-clause KU-clause free* > > and the other places KU is used > > sumti-5 <- ... / quantifier selbri KU-clause? free* relative-clauses? > > sumti-6 <- .../ (LA-clause / LE-clause) free* sumti-tail KU-clause? free*/ ... > > This shows the uses of KU: to close a NA, as an alternative to a sumti > after a FA or tag, to end a quantified sumti that has no LE or LA and > finally to close a LA or LE sumti. > > I'm not sure if this answers your question. The other interpretation of > your question I thought of was "How does the grammar know that we are using > KU one way or another?". The answer is that PEG parsers are greedy, ie that > they will try to make the current rule they are dealing with as long as > possible. > > To use your example {lo nu citka pu ku lo cidja}. When the parser is at pu, > it is processing the rule term-1. It has matched the {pu} as a tag. So then > it tries to match ( sumti / KU-clause? free* ). It fails to match a sumti, > because no sumti begins with {ku}. Then it has the option of matching a > KU-clause, which it does. Then it fails to match any frees. At this point it > has successfully matched a term-1, so it goes back to try to match whatever > rule had the term-1 in it. > > If it was not greedy, then yes it might decide to end the bridi after pu > and use the ku to close off the lo. This is one of the reasons that > ellidible terminators are difficult in the EBNF grammar (or so I am lead to > believe). > > Hope that helps. > > mu'o mi'e ros > > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I know how {ku} is supposed to be used, what I'm asking about is how it >> works (as in, how does the grammar know what to do with {ku}). >> >> I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citka pu ku lo >> cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left until we find a LE >> and then terminate that" which would result in two sumti {lo nu citka pu} >> followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpretation of it being a >> single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}. >> >> I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar directly for these >> things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:27 PM, .alyn.post. < >> alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: >> >>> dur: correcting myself, it's mentioned: >>> >>> http://dag.github.com/cll/10/1/ >>> >>> I did a terrible job of looking. :-) >>> >>> -Alan >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: >>> > Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL: >>> > >>> > http://dag.github.com/cll/20/ >>> > >>> > selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10) >>> > >>> > Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end of >>> > a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate >>> > that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natural >>> > language-style negation. >>> > >>> > I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}, >>> > but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. I'm happy I found some >>> > mention of this usage. >>> > >>> > -Alan >>> > >>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> > > This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that {ba} >>> expects a >>> > > sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi xagji} >>> and that >>> > > putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} is just a >>> way of >>> > > saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or something". But the only >>> way of >>> > > getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} is >>> special in >>> > > that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But that >>> doesn't seem >>> > > right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in the case of >>> {mi ba >>> > > [ku] citka lo plise}? >>> > > >>> > > I wish I understood PEG better. >>> > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1] >>> blindbravado@gmail.com> >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unrelated >>> selma'o, >>> > > though. >>> > > >>> > > mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> > > >>> > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2] >>> lukeabergen@gmail.com> >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > I don't know why it just occurred to me but... what exactly is >>> "ku" >>> > > terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is there an implicit "lo" so >>> that >>> > > parsers see this as /really/ being something like "baloku mi >>> citka"? >>> > > Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I didn't know that BA >>> had a >>> > > terminator... either way something feels strange. >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google >>> > > Groups "lojban" group. >>> > > To post to this group, send email to [3] >>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > > [4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > > For more options, visit this group at >>> > > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google >>> > > Groups "lojban" group. >>> > > To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > > [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > > For more options, visit this group at >>> > > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > > "lojban" group. >>> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > > For more options, visit this group at >>> > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > > >>> > > References >>> > > >>> > > Visible links >>> > > 1. mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com >>> > > 2. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com >>> > > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >>> > > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> > > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >>> > > 6. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >>> > > 7. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> > > 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >>> > >>> > -- >>> > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >>> >>> -- >>> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba4fc232db75680499f025d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, that makes sense. =A0Like I said, I don't know PEG so using an exam= ple helped. Thanks.

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 = at 10:18 PM, Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrote:
To the question of "how does the gramm= ar know?": it knows because a rule has been explicitly put in the gram= mar. As Alan has found already

term-1 <- ... / ( !gek ( tag =A0 / FA-clause =A0free* ) ( sumti / KU-cl= ause? free* ) ) / NA-clause KU-clause free*

and the other places KU is used
sumti-5 <- ... / quantifier selbri KU-clause? free* relat=
ive-clauses?
sumti-6 <- .../ (LA-clause / LE-clause) free* sumti-tai= l KU-clause? free* / ...

This shows the uses of KU: to close = a NA, as an alternative to a sumti after a FA or tag, to end a quantified s= umti that has no LE or LA and finally to close a LA or LE sumti.

I'm not sure if this answers your question. The other interpretatio= n of your question I thought of was "How does the grammar know that we= are using KU one way or another?". The answer is that PEG parsers are= greedy, ie that they will try to make the current rule they are dealing wi= th as long as possible.

To use your example {lo nu citka pu ku lo cidja}. When the parser is at= pu, it is processing the rule term-1. It has matched the {pu} as a tag. So= then it tries to match ( sumti / KU-clause? free* ). It fails to match a sum= ti, because no sumti begins with {ku}. Then it has the option of matching a= KU-clause, which it does. Then it fails to match any frees. At this point = it has successfully matched a term-1, so it goes back to try to match whate= ver rule had the term-1 in it.

If it was not greedy, then yes it might decide to end the bridi after p= u and use the ku to close off the lo. This is one of the reasons that ellid= ible terminators are difficult in the EBNF grammar (or so I am lead to beli= eve).

Hope that helps.

mu'o mi'e ros

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 1:41 PM,= Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
I know how {ku} is supposed to be used, what I'm= asking about is how it works (as in, how does the grammar know what to do = with {ku}).

I would expect the grammar to see something like {lo nu citk= a pu ku lo cidja} and think "ok, {ku} was found, go back to the left u= ntil we find a LE and then terminate that" which would result in two s= umti {lo nu citka pu} followed by {lo cidja} instead of the correct interpr= etation of it being a single sumti {lo nu pu citka lo cidja}.

I should just learn how PEG works and go to the grammar= directly for these things, but mi mutce lazni je mentatpi
<= div>

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:27 PM, .al= yn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote= :
dur: correcting myself,= it's mentioned:

=A0http://da= g.github.com/cll/10/1/

I did a terrible job of looking. =A0:-)

-Alan

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:23:39PM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote:
> Luke, I went hunting and found this in the CLL:
>
> http://dag= .github.com/cll/20/
>
> =A0 selma'o KU (Chapter 6, Chapter 10)
>
> =A0 Elidable terminator for LE and some uses of LA. Indicates the end = of
> =A0 a description sumti. Also used after a tense or modal to indicate<= br> > =A0 that no sumti follows, and in the compound NA+KU to indicate natur= al
> =A0 language-style negation.
>
> I didn't find an example of terminating a tense or modal with {ku}= ,
> but I wasn't exhaustive in my search. =A0I'm happy I found som= e
> mention of this usage.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 07:08:29PM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:
> > =A0 =A0This is the meat of my question. My initial guess was that= {ba} expects a
> > =A0 =A0sumti as is the case with {mi citka lo plise ba lo nu mi x= agji} and that
> > =A0 =A0putting it before the selbri or terminating it with {ku} i= s just a way of
> > =A0 =A0saying "forget that sumti, it's zo'e or somet= hing". But the only way of
> > =A0 =A0getting that is for there to be an implicit {lo} OR {ku} i= s special in
> > =A0 =A0that it terminates tags like LE, BAI, BA, (and FA?). But t= hat doesn't seem
> > =A0 =A0right because then why wouldn't the ku be necessary in= the case of {mi ba
> > =A0 =A0[ku] citka lo plise}?
> >
> > =A0 =A0I wish I understood PEG better.
> > =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Ian Johnson <[1]blindbravado@gmail.co= m>
> > =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Still no idea why ku can terminate two completely unre= lated selma'o,
> > =A0 =A0 =A0though.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0mu'o mi'e .latros.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Luke Bergen <[2]lukeabergen@gmail.= com>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I don't know why it just occurred to me but...= what exactly is "ku"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminatiging in "baku mi citka"? Is the= re an implicit "lo" so that
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0parsers see this as /really/ being something like = "baloku mi citka"?
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Or is ku just able to terminate "ba"? I = didn't know that BA had a
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0terminator... either way something feels strange.<= br> > >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [3]lojban@googlegroups.com<= /a>.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den<= /a>.
> >
> > =A0 =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com.=
> > =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0 =A0[8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
> >
> > =A0 =A0--
> > =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google Groups
> > =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> > =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > =A0 =A0lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> > =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> >
> > References
> >
> > =A0 =A0Visible links
> > =A0 =A01. mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A02. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com
> > =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> > =A0 =A06. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A07. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > =A0 =A08. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
>
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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