From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCg5-bpBBoEwGnyqg@googlegroups.com Fri Jan 21 08:26:27 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PgJoa-0001BR-MU; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:27 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf1425705gxk.16 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=R1Icp5Rg1wYxOC6oYBde03QNrSFeFzRt4VJD26trgzw=; b=0nTnxlK6d8hn0KQpQY/hV646pYZuiDW4oZHo7ZpF0gu1ObxVI299iO5j0KDt13RpzN H6NnEQIRxW5Q93X++G6jRnpz5GmSLP3Tj15gJck/DkzmHyTA1ii21Dm6YB00m5G1hxKL buoKeFqEpvv4hBd6KIBL/yjhafW12XIWr4ddg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JJaEAnHd4+Z7hRb2T2jeFr/0uq3CYhURPTMyPDCumNShedYUluJqWiGPYoTBMrkXqs pvdOa66QmxOVkZa/QYFZioUyYdpswa/xctGYvu3cMYoPD3KCV3Mo8VoeePPcQOoKFSQP nOdz7O7QovEwn5uKJYpahgD/qV778OpUXpcC8= Received: by 10.90.116.13 with SMTP id o13mr62164agc.54.1295627168470; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:08 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls2175444ibi.2.p; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.175.3 with SMTP id ay3mr79521icb.35.1295627167565; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.175.3 with SMTP id ay3mr79520icb.35.1295627167532; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c4si1030581ict.7.2011.01.21.08.26.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.174; Received: by mail-iw0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 9so1841532iwn.19 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.8 with SMTP id i8mr974683iba.125.1295627164705; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:26:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lo drata darlu From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215047c9bea426c049a5db4ba --002215047c9bea426c049a5db4ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i'ecai .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo selvirnu .i broda cei ko'= a zukte fi lo nu jmive ja gleki ja xamgu lo drata kei ki'unai lo nu zukte cu xlali ko'a mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism where a guy throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete stranger out of the way. But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to assume that you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. In case m= y lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: many people believe that selflessness is synonymous with virtue. In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest good" happens to coincide with a good outcome for "you". To assume that that never happens is naive. On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Nothing done blindly is virtuous. > > stevo > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > >> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va'ojemu'i lo nu lo nu nei kei >> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'a na'e pensi gi'e romoi >> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pensi .ijebo va'o lo nu lo drat= a cu >> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo drata .iku'ibo va'o= lo >> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi lo ka virdu kei fi'= a >> brode fi'a brodi >> >> .u'ucai >> >> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not up to the >> task of expressing such a complex concept. In english then: is it more >> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save another, or is i= t >> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more important= to >> hummanity and act accordingly? >> >> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer, should he >> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a homeless guy o= n >> the street? >> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" wro= te: >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --002215047c9bea426c049a5db4ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i'ecai

.iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'= ;u broda mintu lo selvirnu .i broda cei ko'a zukte fi lo nu=A0jmive ja= =A0gleki ja=A0xamgu lo drata kei=A0ki'unai lo nu zukte cu xlali ko'= a

mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo

=
.i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte

Of course= , that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism where a guy throws h= imself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete stranger out of the w= ay. =A0But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to assume that = you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. =A0In case = my lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: =A0many people beli= eve that selflessness is synonymous with virtue.

In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the gre= atest good" happens to coincide with a good outcome for "you"= ;. =A0To assume that that never happens is naive.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Nothing done blindly is virtuous.
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Jan 20= , 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> w= rote:

.u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va'ojemu&#= 39;i lo nu lo nu nei kei cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko&#= 39;a na'e pensi gi'e romoi broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei = ko'a pensi .ijebo va'o lo nu lo drata cu zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni= lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo drata .iku'ibo va'o lo nu ko'= ;a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi lo ka virdu kei fi'= a brode fi'a brodi

.u'ucai

I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not up to the= task of expressing such a complex concept.=A0 In english then:=A0 is it mo= re virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save another, or is i= t more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more important = to hummanity and act accordingly?

i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer, should he= be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a homeless guy on = the street?

On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas&= quot; <jjllamb= ias@gmail.com> wrote:

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