From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDo8vbpBBoEaZJhDA@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 24 09:40:14 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhQOb-00045u-42; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:40:13 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf12328816qwd.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pp9KCgiqvxu1K7y11kwKkbbk/+5kNrAWjL1f3+H0k5A=; b=TdZBoanc2ExVSlW+VeMZp2XseSRM2stw1Xg4ZeFIzigTk00ULPRiWHJ5VzfSULV8G9 pLW4N2oi9AQyUKZ1sZ9318fDwMvhgEEEIovka1IQl7SIEk+l0WCJ6oEKa/Br8NDHUIz3 lMEadaEcH+0u1rCk23qyewD0M78xe/pua95hY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KQ26UatLDHTIc6Uj2Zk/H1ynyHhTi9y2lgqMbtEN6C5WNxpi0EICMuUnh7DNhV0jbi 2j8l4X2kOpnEyb2ZxyyxsKHGojUSogE/u2v+B5avxLjkbOShvkjpzGH0cfYP7zx3Z5/i W5EBWeFmdOwNsfeSVVb7FcuyZJQyB1iqEsNMM= Received: by 10.229.186.137 with SMTP id cs9mr540499qcb.19.1295890792949; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.80.196 with SMTP id u4ls8926qck.0.p; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.77.95 with SMTP id f31mr609445qck.27.1295890792093; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.77.95 with SMTP id f31mr609443qck.27.1295890791953; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si2956225qcu.14.2011.01.24.09.39.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.171; Received: by mail-qy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 32so3012588qyk.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.95.81 with SMTP id c17mr4047235qcn.99.1295890790777; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.213.204 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:39:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <647953.32901.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <647953.32901.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:39:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lo drata darlu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ka'u ro remna cu se vamji lo cimni zi'o lo nu jmive .i seni'ibo va'o da'i lo nu do bilga lo nu cuxna pa da lo nu do jmive kei ce lo nu lo drata cu jmive keikei do bilga lo cuxna tu'a do .i lo nu de catra di seva'u de cu se tolcru .iku'i lo nu de na'e nurxru di tezu'e lo nu de jmive kei kei cu se curmi (BTW, Luke, you're using "sev-" where I think you mean "sez/se'i") --gejyspa On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: > Not to mention the whole question of whether the greatest good --whatever > that means -- is an appropriate basis for ethical decisions. > > Sent from my iPad > On Jan 21, 2011, at 10:26, Luke Bergen wrote: > > .i'ecai > .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo selvirnu .i broda cei k= o'a > zukte fi lo nu=A0jmive ja=A0gleki ja=A0xamgu lo drata kei=A0ki'unai lo nu= zukte cu > xlali ko'a > mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo > .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte > Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism where a g= uy > throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete stranger ou= t > of the way. =A0But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to as= sume > that you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. =A0In ca= se my > lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: =A0many people belie= ve > that selflessness is synonymous with virtue. > In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest good" happens to > coincide with a good outcome for "you". =A0To assume that that never happ= ens > is naive. > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict wrot= e: >> >> Nothing done blindly is virtuous. >> >> stevo >> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >>> >>> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va'ojemu'i lo nu lo nu nei ke= i >>> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'a na'e pensi gi'e romo= i >>> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pensi .ijebo va'o lo nu lo dra= ta cu >>> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo drata .iku'ibo va'= o lo >>> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi lo ka virdu kei fi= 'a >>> brode fi'a brodi >>> >>> .u'ucai >>> >>> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not up to th= e >>> task of expressing such a complex concept.=A0 In english then:=A0 is it= more >>> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save another, or is = it >>> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more importan= t to >>> hummanity and act accordingly? >>> >>> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer, should h= e >>> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a homeless guy = on >>> the street? >>> >>> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" wrot= e: >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.