From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDjj_fpBBoE7FHjow@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 24 10:41:56 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhRMN-0004Oi-D3; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:55 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf3703841gwb.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hrpddYjUKTV1pj86Rp2jTz+3If6BPJyjl0k+M2PJm3k=; b=JhfmBOhtx8nFPSVwdLWVgbD1O/CMPi3uhX2e1+IXEz266UGjr0cu4TuMS5dKtYk403 P8gtmXPbncVccb6+nrycnLbCepLwFJ2mhHFSo54dlkkZs66tuwdt81vHqrDfpLT8znhS YpM/9QQllJvaRdoGMa5vE4Z8HX6ghEIsoqNtc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Z3q264shtXReGB+72Ge0EPrnnc4EpAC7xfKfeJ45EApGsPy1fCCpSXrmqvF0W+gzBi 7EyiF/t0a3GHhdromVthV2JlI8QHYV6NC9iS+vNl0D7GVFPgjGThTdDysfsEaNXWRbTK GfBVB6NS6vvKqDkDz4zGlqxC2J2Hsnyl01KJ4= Received: by 10.150.11.17 with SMTP id 17mr459611ybk.67.1295894499689; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.200.3 with SMTP id eu3ls2308396ibb.1.p; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.169.195 with SMTP id c3mr460775icz.26.1295894498865; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.169.195 with SMTP id c3mr460774icz.26.1295894498850; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jo1si1519271icb.5.2011.01.24.10.41.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by mail-iw0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 40so4500261iwn.28 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.198 with SMTP id u6mr5222538ibd.100.1295894497618; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <647953.32901.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 13:41:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lo drata darlu From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0021cc022382326f38049a9bf3a6 --0021cc022382326f38049a9bf3a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oh wow. {nurxru} would have been an amazingly useful word when I was putting together earlier emails. That's a handy one. Also, thanks gejyspa= , not sure why I was thinking sev. ta'onai mi na casnu tu'a lo se curmi .i mi casnu tu'a lo se virnu .i mi jinvi lo du'u lo nu da seznurxru ki'unai lo nu de mrobi'o keikei cu virnu va'o lo nu lo nu seznurxru kei cu rinka tu'a lo zmadu xamgu .isa'u da'i mi bazi facki lo micyske be fi la .cancer. .i mi tolvirnu lo nu da'i nurxru lo drata mu'inai lo nu mi morsi .iki'ubo so'i prenu cu mrobi'o ki'u lo nu mi morsi je nurxru lo drata On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > ka'u ro remna cu se vamji lo cimni zi'o lo nu jmive .i seni'ibo va'o > da'i lo nu do bilga lo nu cuxna pa da lo nu do jmive kei ce lo nu lo > drata cu jmive keikei do bilga lo cuxna tu'a do .i lo nu de catra di > seva'u de cu se tolcru .iku'i lo nu de na'e nurxru di tezu'e lo nu de > jmive kei kei cu se curmi > > (BTW, Luke, you're using "sev-" where I think you mean "sez/se'i") > --gejyspa > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, John E. Clifford > wrote: > > Not to mention the whole question of whether the greatest good --whatev= er > > that means -- is an appropriate basis for ethical decisions. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 21, 2011, at 10:26, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > > .i'ecai > > .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo selvirnu .i broda cei > ko'a > > zukte fi lo nu jmive ja gleki ja xamgu lo drata kei ki'unai lo nu zukte > cu > > xlali ko'a > > mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo > > .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte > > Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism where a > guy > > throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete stranger > out > > of the way. But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to > assume > > that you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. In ca= se > my > > lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: many people belie= ve > > that selflessness is synonymous with virtue. > > In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest good" happens t= o > > coincide with a good outcome for "you". To assume that that never > happens > > is naive. > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict > wrote: > >> > >> Nothing done blindly is virtuous. > >> > >> stevo > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va'ojemu'i lo nu lo nu nei > kei > >>> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'a na'e pensi gi'e > romoi > >>> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pensi .ijebo va'o lo nu lo > drata cu > >>> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo drata .iku'ibo > va'o lo > >>> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi lo ka virdu kei > fi'a > >>> brode fi'a brodi > >>> > >>> .u'ucai > >>> > >>> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not up to > the > >>> task of expressing such a complex concept. In english then: is it > more > >>> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save another, or i= s > it > >>> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more > important to > >>> hummanity and act accordingly? > >>> > >>> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer, should > he > >>> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a homeless gu= y > on > >>> the street? > >>> > >>> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" > wrote: > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "lojban" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0021cc022382326f38049a9bf3a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oh wow. =A0{nurxru} would have been an amazingly useful word when I was put= ting together earlier emails. =A0That's a handy one. =A0Also, thanks ge= jyspa, not sure why I was thinking sev.

ta'onai mi n= a casnu tu'a lo se curmi .i mi casnu tu'a lo se virnu

.i mi jinvi lo du'u lo nu da seznurxru ki'unai = lo nu de mrobi'o keikei cu virnu va'o lo nu lo nu seznurxru kei cu = rinka tu'a lo zmadu xamgu

.isa'u da'i = mi bazi facki lo micyske be fi la .cancer. .i mi tolvirnu lo nu da'i nu= rxru lo drata mu'inai lo nu mi morsi .iki'ubo so'i prenu cu mro= bi'o ki'u lo nu mi morsi je nurxru lo drata

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
ka'u ro remna =A0cu se =A0vamji lo cimni zi'o lo nu jmive .i seni&#= 39;ibo va'o
da'i lo nu do bilga lo nu cuxna pa da lo nu do jmive kei ce lo nu lo drata cu jmive keikei do bilga lo cuxna tu'a do .i lo nu de catra di seva'u de cu se tolcru .iku'i lo nu de na'e nurxru di tezu'= e lo nu de
jmive kei kei cu se curmi

(BTW, Luke, you're using "sev-" where I think you mean "= sez/se'i")
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not to mention the whole question of whether the greatest good --whate= ver
> that means -- is an appropriate basis for ethical decisions.
>
> Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 21, 2011, at 10:26, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> .i'ecai
> .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo selvirnu= .i broda cei ko'a
> zukte fi lo nu=A0jmive ja=A0gleki ja=A0xamgu lo drata kei=A0ki'una= i lo nu zukte cu
> xlali ko'a
> mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo
> .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte
> Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism where = a guy
> throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete stranger= out
> of the way. =A0But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to= assume
> that you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. = =A0In case my
> lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: =A0many people be= lieve
> that selflessness is synonymous with virtue.
> In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest good"= ; happens to
> coincide with a good outcome for "you". =A0To assume that th= at never happens
> is naive.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nothing done blindly is virtuous.
>>
>> stevo
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va&#= 39;ojemu'i lo nu lo nu nei kei
>>> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'a na'= e pensi gi'e romoi
>>> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pensi .ijebo = va'o lo nu lo drata cu
>>> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo d= rata .iku'ibo va'o lo
>>> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi l= o ka virdu kei fi'a
>>> brode fi'a brodi
>>>
>>> .u'ucai
>>>
>>> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not= up to the
>>> task of expressing such a complex concept.=A0 In english then:= =A0 is it more
>>> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save anothe= r, or is it
>>> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more= important to
>>> hummanity and act accordingly?
>>>
>>> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer,= should he
>>> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a home= less guy on
>>> the street?
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>>> "lojban" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0021cc022382326f38049a9bf3a6--