From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDNn_fpBBoErELQKw@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 24 11:15:44 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhRt2-0004q5-9D; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:43 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf3730001yia.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ojnmIjql8sfqNsO1bUS3GUT5hTGT+uH4nQKbaDW1J2o=; b=V8bsIE87GX9rPhoOmpOCO4U24yKe5nVtwwiNb6Lp1/WWvfdbDihzz2FXP8BKxAnNAi dUbny4rqhjoteXWzgzAlw10JOo52DkBFPdZ7hnRrShNDOKj9M6dx0xEfsGXHhaT0NGJt y32MdD2Tol3d7OCnp1A+bynN6RY4kTrrPjmuo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JThQEbBoagXWNMgcDWlqPvJYstIFq9mh4D1oPJpo2HLuNehFos++ClftfXRz71Ga43 POtxQRtCD5lXmQiYCejN1w5PjnGo8YqlbEZlJstlAKesszvzDU0Yq8+DEjV0T9xdYMFQ MoFoNYEcIOclyhal0bKV/aELI1DIXjnNK9i9M= Received: by 10.90.67.20 with SMTP id p20mr332185aga.45.1295896525942; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:25 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls151119ibk.3.p; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.7 with SMTP id m7mr447634icy.22.1295896525053; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.7 with SMTP id m7mr447633icy.22.1295896525027; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf5si1524390icb.6.2011.01.24.11.15.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.174; Received: by iwn9 with SMTP id 9so5031047iwn.5 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.8 with SMTP id i8mr5259947iba.125.1295896517975; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <647953.32901.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 14:15:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lo drata darlu From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215047c9b9ea644049a9c6be7 --002215047c9b9ea644049a9c6be7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .ie .i no prenu cu kakne lo nu djuno lo balvi .iku'i ro prenu cu kakne lo n= u smadi .i va'o lo nu da pulji gi'e de zerpre kei lakna fa lo nu da zmadu de tu'a lo xamgu balvi .i cumki fa lo nu mutce mutce xlali fa lo nu de mrobi'o .iku'i ma'a roroi lakne jdice fi roda .i lo nu na'e pensi jdice cu xlali .i pe'i lo nu lakne jdice ba lo nu pensi je tcini bo viska keikei cu traji lo ka vrude .ita'o mi mutce srera .i ro selsku zo'u lo'ai virnu sa'ai vrude le'ai On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > lo se na'e curmi cu tolvri ca'e .i no prenu ka'e djuno fi lo balvi .i > la'acu'i do ji'a bazi morsi gi'e na mulgau lo danfu be tu'a lo kenra > .i la'acu'i ba lo nu do mikce fi lo kenra kei do snuti finti lo mutce > vidru noi catra pa gigdo be lo prenu .i semu'inai bo do bilga lo nu > cuxna tu'a do du'o lo brojda > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > oh wow. {nurxru} would have been an amazingly useful word when I was > > putting together earlier emails. That's a handy one. Also, thanks > gejyspa, > > not sure why I was thinking sev. > > ta'onai mi na casnu tu'a lo se curmi .i mi casnu tu'a lo se virnu > > .i mi jinvi lo du'u lo nu da seznurxru ki'unai lo nu de mrobi'o keikei = cu > > virnu va'o lo nu lo nu seznurxru kei cu rinka tu'a lo zmadu xamgu > > .isa'u da'i mi bazi facki lo micyske be fi la .cancer. .i mi tolvirnu l= o > nu > > da'i nurxru lo drata mu'inai lo nu mi morsi .iki'ubo so'i prenu cu > mrobi'o > > ki'u lo nu mi morsi je nurxru lo drata > > > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> ka'u ro remna cu se vamji lo cimni zi'o lo nu jmive .i seni'ibo va'o > >> da'i lo nu do bilga lo nu cuxna pa da lo nu do jmive kei ce lo nu lo > >> drata cu jmive keikei do bilga lo cuxna tu'a do .i lo nu de catra di > >> seva'u de cu se tolcru .iku'i lo nu de na'e nurxru di tezu'e lo nu de > >> jmive kei kei cu se curmi > >> > >> (BTW, Luke, you're using "sev-" where I think you mean "sez/se'i") > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, John E. Clifford > > >> wrote: > >> > Not to mention the whole question of whether the greatest good > >> > --whatever > >> > that means -- is an appropriate basis for ethical decisions. > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPad > >> > On Jan 21, 2011, at 10:26, Luke Bergen wrote= : > >> > > >> > .i'ecai > >> > .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo selvirnu .i broda > cei > >> > ko'a > >> > zukte fi lo nu jmive ja gleki ja xamgu lo drata kei ki'unai lo nu > zukte > >> > cu > >> > xlali ko'a > >> > mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo > >> > .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte > >> > Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroism wher= e > a > >> > guy > >> > throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete strang= er > >> > out > >> > of the way. But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of naive to > >> > assume > >> > that you're life is worth less than that of a complete stranger. In > >> > case my > >> > lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: many people > >> > believe > >> > that selflessness is synonymous with virtue. > >> > In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest good" happen= s > to > >> > coincide with a good outcome for "you". To assume that that never > >> > happens > >> > is naive. > >> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Nothing done blindly is virtuous. > >> >> > >> >> stevo > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori'a va'ojemu'i lo nu lo nu n= ei > >> >>> kei > >> >>> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'a na'e pensi gi'e > >> >>> romoi > >> >>> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pensi .ijebo va'o lo nu l= o > >> >>> drata cu > >> >>> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a broda lo drata .iku'ib= o > >> >>> va'o lo > >> >>> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i zmadu fi lo ka virdu k= ei > >> >>> fi'a > >> >>> brode fi'a brodi > >> >>> > >> >>> .u'ucai > >> >>> > >> >>> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is just not up = to > >> >>> the > >> >>> task of expressing such a complex concept. In english then: is i= t > >> >>> more > >> >>> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to save another, o= r > is > >> >>> it > >> >>> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which life is more > >> >>> important to > >> >>> hummanity and act accordingly? > >> >>> > >> >>> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure for cancer, > should > >> >>> he > >> >>> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to save a homeless > guy > >> >>> on > >> >>> the street? > >> >>> > >> >>> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >>> Groups > >> >>> "lojban" group. > >> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >>> For more options, visit this group at > >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --002215047c9b9ea644049a9c6be7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .ie .i no prenu cu kakne lo nu djuno lo balvi .iku'i ro prenu cu kakne = lo nu smadi .i va'o lo nu da pulji gi'e de zerpre kei lakna fa lo n= u da zmadu de tu'a lo xamgu balvi .i cumki fa lo nu mutce mutce xlali f= a lo nu de mrobi'o .iku'i ma'a roroi lakne jdice fi roda

.i lo nu na'e pensi jdice cu xlali .i pe'i lo nu lak= ne jdice ba lo nu pensi je tcini bo viska keikei cu traji lo ka vrude
=

.ita'o mi mutce srera .i ro selsku zo'u lo'= ai virnu sa'ai vrude le'ai

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
lo se na'e curmi cu tolvri ca'e .i no prenu =A0ka'e djuno fi lo= balvi .i
la'acu'i do ji'a bazi morsi gi'e na mulgau lo danfu be tu&#= 39;a lo kenra
.i la'acu'i ba lo nu do mikce =A0fi lo kenra kei do snuti finti lo = mutce
vidru noi catra pa gigdo be lo prenu .i semu'inai bo do bilga lo nu
cuxna tu'a do du'o lo brojda
=A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> oh wow. =A0{nurxru} would have been an amazingly useful word when I wa= s
> putting together earlier emails. =A0That's a handy one. =A0Also, t= hanks gejyspa,
> not sure why I was thinking sev.
> ta'onai mi na casnu tu'a lo se curmi .i mi casnu tu'a lo s= e virnu
> .i mi jinvi lo du'u lo nu da seznurxru ki'unai lo nu de mrobi&= #39;o keikei cu
> virnu va'o lo nu lo nu seznurxru kei cu rinka tu'a lo zmadu xa= mgu
> .isa'u da'i mi bazi facki lo micyske be fi la .cancer. .i mi t= olvirnu lo nu
> da'i nurxru lo drata mu'inai lo nu mi morsi .iki'ubo so= 9;i prenu cu mrobi'o
> ki'u lo nu mi morsi je nurxru lo drata
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> ka'u ro remna =A0cu se =A0vamji lo cimni zi'o lo nu jmive = .i seni'ibo va'o
>> da'i lo nu do bilga lo nu cuxna pa da lo nu do jmive kei ce lo= nu lo
>> drata cu jmive keikei do bilga lo cuxna tu'a do .i lo nu de ca= tra di
>> seva'u de cu se tolcru .iku'i lo nu de na'e nurxru di = tezu'e lo nu de
>> jmive kei kei cu se curmi
>>
>> (BTW, Luke, you're using "sev-" where I think you me= an "sez/se'i")
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Not to mention the whole question of whether the greatest goo= d
>> > --whatever
>> > that means -- is an appropriate basis for ethical decisions.<= br> >> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> > On Jan 21, 2011, at 10:26, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > .i'ecai
>> > .iku'i so'i prenu cu krici lo du'u broda mintu lo= selvirnu .i broda cei
>> > ko'a
>> > zukte fi lo nu=A0jmive ja=A0gleki ja=A0xamgu lo drata kei=A0k= i'unai lo nu zukte
>> > cu
>> > xlali ko'a
>> > mi nelci lo selsku be do doi stevo
>> > .i na virnu ro lo nu toldjuno zukte
>> > Of course, that flies in the face of the classic act of heroi= sm where a
>> > guy
>> > throws himself in front of a bus in order to shove a complete= stranger
>> > out
>> > of the way. =A0But, as per my earlier argument, it is kind of= naive to
>> > assume
>> > that you're life is worth less than that of a complete st= ranger. =A0In
>> > case my
>> > lojban is, again, too funky for clear understanding: =A0many = people
>> > believe
>> > that selflessness is synonymous with virtue.
>> > In reality, it is sometimes the case that "the greatest = good" happens to
>> > coincide with a good outcome for "you". =A0To assum= e that that never
>> > happens
>> > is naive.
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Nothing done blindly is virtuous.
>> >>
>> >> stevo
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> .u'u .i sa'u .i broda cei ko'a sevmrori&#= 39;a va'ojemu'i lo nu lo nu nei
>> >>> kei
>> >>> cu rinka lo nu lo drata cu jmive .i brode cei ko'= a na'e pensi gi'e
>> >>> romoi
>> >>> broda va'o lo nu cumki .i brodi cei ko'a pens= i .ijebo va'o lo nu lo
>> >>> drata cu
>> >>> zmadu ko'a lo ka vajni lo remna keikei ko'a b= roda lo drata .iku'ibo
>> >>> va'o lo
>> >>> nu ko'a zmadu lo drata kei ko'a na broda .i z= madu fi lo ka virdu kei
>> >>> fi'a
>> >>> brode fi'a brodi
>> >>>
>> >>> .u'ucai
>> >>>
>> >>> I think this is one of those times where my lojban is= just not up to
>> >>> the
>> >>> task of expressing such a complex concept.=A0 In engl= ish then:=A0 is it
>> >>> more
>> >>> virtuous to blindly sacrifice onesself in order to sa= ve another, or is
>> >>> it
>> >>> more virtuous to consider probabalistically which lif= e is more
>> >>> important to
>> >>> hummanity and act accordingly?
>> >>>
>> >>> i.e. if bob is on the brink of a breakthrough cure fo= r cancer, should
>> >>> he
>> >>> be considered virtuous for sacrificing his life to sa= ve a homeless guy
>> >>> on
>> >>> the street?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas"= <jjllambias@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google
>> >>> Groups
>> >>> "lojban" group.
>> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> For more options, visit this group at
>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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