From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDOr_7pBBoEvEIQWw@googlegroups.com Tue Jan 25 19:41:17 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhwFt-0003Yp-8C; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:17 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf4943637yxn.16 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VJ1lWZH2HgtZzd6/r27FZLY5QCZiIXukMgYL2O9QIT8=; b=pt7QLNLurZWfqxmQjvdEcBqg7WwMe6WTdVIkWz31GiHQzsphSRonJOaBnrekpe/5Xe JiHT6895VghvWXGIrbawt35Q1tO8W7HBbtq4CAlBE/7mWXnA8kDxAUFbSrcYydaP4ThX J2ACN7g+UzMFrjSSy6/ziomv/UVcfdQnHIKVU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=MPHMVmNXHdYPnxqUmuUNnuYOGqykTNnT32Fc/xVZG3u3mVBVTGnUp07gvOV6sJJkNd K53rS1uovXV2zocfd7FDjha8rJO35vfntH7DzGvxelWGyUYtxo0bAXGhFZ0sDX/Io0p5 Ioah6QuAd8RbWAcFIpKeWlITQRLO90yFdoH+w= Received: by 10.150.53.11 with SMTP id b11mr43696yba.42.1296013262379; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:02 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls198221ibi.2.p; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr3142054ibu.7.1296013260517; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.11.193 with SMTP id u1mr3142052ibu.7.1296013260447; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f179.google.com (mail-iy0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m30si3627960ibu.6.2011.01.25.19.40.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.179; Received: by mail-iy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 19so6174926iye.10 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:40:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.178.199 with SMTP id bn7mr7740487icb.154.1296013259372; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.172.67 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:40:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:40:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8d62f2f78b049ab79964 --90e6ba6e8d62f2f78b049ab79964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid, although I could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or at least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter delimiters. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post. < alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar > is: > > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF? > / EOF > > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space, > which includes punctuation like ? and !.) > > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting > question: > > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that > coincidentally is .y. > > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been > experimenting with Y handling. > > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency? > What do you think? > > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage: > > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?" > > And he opined no. > > -Alan > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only; quotes > a > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or whitespace > (in > > writing)". > > > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces > > > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know if it > > will make a difference > > > > mu'o mi'e ros > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post. > > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed definition > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are > > shown here. > > > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI > > > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post > > -> ZOhOI-clause > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces? > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause > > > > CMAVO <- ... > > / ZOhOI > > / ... > > > > sumti-6 <- ... > > / ZOhOI-clause free* > > / ... > > > > known-cmavo-sa <- ... > > / ZOhOI-pre > > / ... > > > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing. > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI' > > ;; > > known-cmavo-pre <- ... > > / ZOhOI-pre > > / ... > > > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre clause, > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to > > present to the BPFK. > > > > -Alan > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > [4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 3. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 4. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba6e8d62f2f78b049ab79964 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid= , although I could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? &quo= t; being made, or at least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-= letter delimiters.

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post= . <a= lyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
Good catch, thank you. =A0The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar
is:

=A0spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF?
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0/ EOF

Which includes what I understand to be a pause. =A0(comma and space,
which includes punctuation like ? and !.)

I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe
camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting
question:

For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is
hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? =A0zo permits
hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted
word is Loban. =A0If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the
quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that
coincidentally is .y.

In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it
isn't a show-stopper. =A0camxes actually doesn't permit this usage<= br> either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that
is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been
experimenting with Y handling.

Interesting question, nevertheless. =A0Accuracy versus consistency?
What do you think?

I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage:

=A0zo'oi "Where are your Keys?"

And he opined no.

-Alan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote:
> =A0 =A0From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban w= ord only; quotes a
> =A0 =A0single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or white= space (in
> =A0 =A0writing)".
>
> =A0 =A0It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie
> =A0 =A0ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces<= br> >
> =A0 =A0I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to= know if it
> =A0 =A0will make a difference
>
> =A0 =A0mu'o mi'e ros
>
> =A0 =A0On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wr= ote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed d= efinition
> =A0 =A0 =A0for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' production= s are existing
> =A0 =A0 =A0rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, whi= ch are
> =A0 =A0 =A0shown here.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> Z= OhOI
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post
> =A0 =A0 =A0-> ZOhOI-clause
> =A0 =A0 =A0ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `= spaces?
> =A0 =A0 =A0ZOhOI-post <- post-clause
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0CMAVO <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ZOhOI
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ...
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0sumti-6 <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ZOhOI-clause free*
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ...
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0known-cmavo-sa <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ZOhOI-pre
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ...
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this nee= ds testing.
> =A0 =A0 =A0;; It may be just 'ZOhOI'
> =A0 =A0 =A0;;
> =A0 =A0 =A0known-cmavo-pre <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ZOhOI-pre
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ ...
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pr= e clause,
> =A0 =A0 =A0and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this = is
> =A0 =A0 =A0untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm ho= ping this
> =A0 =A0 =A0can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enoug= h to
> =A0 =A0 =A0present to the BPFK.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0-Alan
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0 =A0[4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups
> =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A02. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A04. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--90e6ba6e8d62f2f78b049ab79964--