From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBCWt_7pBBoEk9QEnA@googlegroups.com Tue Jan 25 19:57:36 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhwVd-00013s-Hc; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:35 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf4932376gyb.16 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=RJa9KT1UXK0b6oSJzVjSBuqCqvh9Et8RHCq2UixoD3Y=; b=i7Nthc6weDcR9wvoA4qvaIq5ycrHZz37qE6GAMBT/3EAu+O8YCKKNrOQ5eFntgg/tf H1ARAgjvFZDqk5smMEme6vgxhICdwGUMSPKmBn7y04ErwR0AFCO8O3sNfOV089lNxuF2 0vkKtkqUvUEuaciIKzoBFMO6c68OKHB1c5MKs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=1g0AoecBMKX7ASZhGMo2RiutJMnlshwC8V2MKPIUukyYWmpMlHjwZpfj8oQLWKMUfh Mr7c59+7wS7BYptB7msJt+ZWo/EJIqEe+VgmeBxP6b+etW8yrFrfqKBjWMm9r2UJ2LYi wy7f5JBnfXyRUMglcLEJ36Mdsbn7grSZAKsN0= Received: by 10.150.229.13 with SMTP id b13mr51683ybh.8.1296014230246; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.197.14 with SMTP id u14ls146604ybf.7.p; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.147.83.8 with SMTP id k8mr3033358yal.21.1296014229433; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.147.83.8 with SMTP id k8mr3033357yal.21.1296014229394; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com (mail-yi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q24si2358048ybk.9.2011.01.25.19.57.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.218.44 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.218.44; Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19so2262747yie.3 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.95.10 with SMTP id s10mr4605267anb.5.1296014219516; Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x36sm18544807anx.34.2011.01.25.19.56.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:56:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:56:54 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI Message-ID: <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.218.44 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. This excludes " from being used. Nevertheless, I give you points for cleverness there. :-D -Alan On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid, although I > could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or at > least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter delimiters. > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post. > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar > is: > > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF? > / EOF > > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space, > which includes punctuation like ? and !.) > > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting > question: > > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that > coincidentally is .y. > > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been > experimenting with Y handling. > > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency? > What do you think? > > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage: > > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?" > > And he opined no. > > -Alan > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only; quotes > a > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or whitespace > (in > > writing)". > > > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces > > > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know if it > > will make a difference > > > > mu'o mi'e ros > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post. > > <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed definition > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are > > shown here. > > > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI > > > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post > > -> ZOhOI-clause > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces? > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause > > > > CMAVO <- ... > > / ZOhOI > > / ... > > > > sumti-6 <- ... > > / ZOhOI-clause free* > > / ... > > > > known-cmavo-sa <- ... > > / ZOhOI-pre > > / ... > > > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing. > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI' > > ;; > > known-cmavo-pre <- ... > > / ZOhOI-pre > > / ... > > > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre clause, > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to > > present to the BPFK. > > > > -Alan > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [2][3]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [3][4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [4][5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:[9]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:[10]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 3. mailto:[11]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 4. [12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [13]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [14]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [15]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 6. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 7. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 9. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 10. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 11. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 13. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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