From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDY04HqBBoE80FNHQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 26 10:37:29 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiAF9-0007iF-SP; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:29 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf540794ywh.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3bouId6F91F68OohnjjXkXA/77mhPFLVx4H1nYO/B4w=; b=6dVteQ67DooIJxgnrlzd8YK224aC0kvnh4ciHsqLY0v9vN3XyzqAi/PAGKyDWjPwyB RazdKetOL6XDPl3QM7KWXuHzZHdB1+cRu7REItV/3rWUh3q7FgQA/qtNFAdVfSjaPmXo 5U4hIrVOELrSnugy+fwkE7NwvPERmFYS1ciGM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WicfeezTt58L0wIdmpftW/++IpGuGPM+QGjNFenwqH8W1pJEPFiAf3sQedUSJ8EyeR lfRjWjpshe/8/GDiORQTBWHsv52Lh0jAuZokxl861eLnFsImjZFZk3euI43fyWEb7HX9 9ETzgOpcXkhAEjFsbHdtDK0DRfUAxpyRJQmEw= Received: by 10.90.31.19 with SMTP id e19mr113242age.29.1296067032116; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:12 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls901772ibh.0.p; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.206.68 with SMTP id ft4mr3840894ibb.13.1296067031210; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.206.68 with SMTP id ft4mr3840893ibb.13.1296067031145; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f178.google.com (mail-iw0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf5si1970643icb.6.2011.01.26.10.37.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.178; Received: by mail-iw0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 19so1178537iwr.9 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.172.197 with SMTP id o5mr874525icz.422.1296067029995; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.172.67 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:37:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:37:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8ac6ed902f049ac41e50 --90e6ba6e8ac6ed902f049ac41e50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, .alyn.post. < alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that > zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. This excludes > " from being used. Nevertheless, I give you points for > cleverness there. :-D > If one wanted to be too clever by half, one could argue that " is a representation of the cmevla {.quot.} like 4 is a representation of the namcu valsi {vo}. > -Alan > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid, > although I > > could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or > at > > least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter > delimiters. > > > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar > > is: > > > > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF? > > / EOF > > > > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space, > > which includes punctuation like ? and !.) > > > > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe > > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting > > question: > > > > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is > > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits > > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted > > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the > > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that > > coincidentally is .y. > > > > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it > > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage > > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that > > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been > > experimenting with Y handling. > > > > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency? > > What do you think? > > > > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage: > > > > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?" > > > > And he opined no. > > > > -Alan > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only; > quotes > > a > > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or > whitespace > > (in > > > writing)". > > > > > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces > > > > > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know > if it > > > will make a difference > > > > > > mu'o mi'e ros > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post. > > > <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed > definition > > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing > > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are > > > shown here. > > > > > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI > > > > > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post > > > -> ZOhOI-clause > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces? > > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause > > > > > > CMAVO <- ... > > > / ZOhOI > > > / ... > > > > > > sumti-6 <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-clause free* > > > / ... > > > > > > known-cmavo-sa <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing. > > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI' > > > ;; > > > known-cmavo-pre <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre > clause, > > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is > > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this > > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to > > > present to the BPFK. > > > > > > -Alan > > > -- > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [2][3] > lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [3][4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [4][5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:[9]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > > 2. mailto:[10]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 3. mailto:[11]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 4. [12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [13]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [14]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > [15]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 6. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 7. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 9. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 10. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 11. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 13. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba6e8ac6ed902f049ac41e50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, .alyn.= post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that
zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. =A0This excludes
" from being used. =A0Nevertheless, I give you points for
cleverness there. =A0:-D

If one wanted to be too c= lever by half, one could argue that " is a representation of the cmevl= a {.quot.} like 4 is a representation of the namcu valsi {vo}.
=A0
-Alan

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> =A0 =A0I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should = not be valid, although I
> =A0 =A0could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? "= ; being made, or at
> =A0 =A0least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter de= limiters.
>
> =A0 =A0On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wr= ote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my)= grammar
> =A0 =A0 =A0is:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF?
> =A0 =A0 =A0/ EOF
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and = space,
> =A0 =A0 =A0which includes punctuation like ? and !.)
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0I've been experimenting with this part of the morpholog= y, I believe
> =A0 =A0 =A0camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interestin= g
> =A0 =A0 =A0question:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single wor= d, is
> =A0 =A0 =A0hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? z= o permits
> =A0 =A0 =A0hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the = quoted
> =A0 =A0 =A0word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and th= e
> =A0 =A0 =A0quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a forei= gn word that
> =A0 =A0 =A0coincidentally is .y.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this ca= se, so it
> =A0 =A0 =A0isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permi= t this usage
> =A0 =A0 =A0either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse = tree that
> =A0 =A0 =A0is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I= 've been
> =A0 =A0 =A0experimenting with Y handling.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consist= ency?
> =A0 =A0 =A0What do you think?
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0zo'oi "Where are your Keys?"
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0And he opined no.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0-Alan
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrot= e:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non= -Lojban word only; quotes
> =A0 =A0 =A0a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech)= or whitespace
> =A0 =A0 =A0(in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> writing)".
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-wor= d spaces
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojba= n-word to know if it
> =A0 =A0 =A0> will make a difference
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> mu'o mi'e ros
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> <[1][= 2]alyn.post@lodockikumazv= ati.org> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the propo= sed definition
> =A0 =A0 =A0> for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' produ= ctions are existing
> =A0 =A0 =A0> rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions= , which are
> =A0 =A0 =A0> shown here.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -&= gt; ZOhOI
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post
> =A0 =A0 =A0> -> ZOhOI-clause
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-w= ord `spaces?
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ZOhOI-post <- post-clause
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> CMAVO <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ZOhOI
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> sumti-6 <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ZOhOI-clause free*
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> known-cmavo-sa <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ZOhOI-pre
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, thi= s needs testing.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI'
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ;;
> =A0 =A0 =A0> known-cmavo-pre <- ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ZOhOI-pre
> =A0 =A0 =A0> / ...
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOh= OI-pre clause,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of = this is
> =A0 =A0 =A0> untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'= ;m hoping this
> =A0 =A0 =A0> can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal = enough to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> present to the BPFK.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> -Alan
> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> To post to this group, send email to [2][3= ]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> To unsubscribe from this group, send= email to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> [3][4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> For more options, visit this group a= t
> =A0 =A0 =A0> [4][5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups
> =A0 =A0 =A0> "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> To post to this group, send email to [6]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> To unsubscribe from this group, send= email to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> [7]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> For more options, visit this group a= t
> =A0 =A0 =A0> [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De= n.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> References
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Visible links
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 1. mailto:[9]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 2. mailto:[10]lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 3. mailto:[11]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 4. [12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den<= /a>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [13]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[14]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0 =A0[15]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0Alex R
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups
> =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A02. mailto:aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 =A06. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A07. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A08. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 =A09. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 10. mailto:lojban= @googlegroups.com
> =A0 11. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 13. mailto:lojban@googl= egroups.com
> =A0 14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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