From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDi2IHqBBoE2w4qZg@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 26 10:48:17 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiAPd-0008Ro-FN; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:17 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf558069ywh.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=T5H8jyFQPfflgi6yz8aiJtu9jx+W75t2IWgNp6RGFBs=; b=cM/VbpzdGRFbYrILrJte0mS5EPLBA6sI8sBr9w7TGIp/Q6Rsp3AdgOe3nzPBZjhJyB UbimxT2WZuENlCCHFPWYsEdY0z/95kQXsVPVurFwNWHtCDhT+WeHc2uhuUR3q+qzLNHP qvpPqfMJ8gKjQgaqPDz5r+u+C+AeWccp1bCq8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=jCM8Ndh3hA9uz5Un70sEDFqcp3ifqkKrehNzH8kJAYgHkbv3LeVP+BHdTVbmsladHm +XZ9RB67RuqQseKuKtMndAwDDs4tsdRPTY12vqDQcDrEPn3d9/DlcoqT/yz0e3MGmMA3 unPbcD86DeHXFp3d8EYoldEmgy3Fx5Rhdojx4= Received: by 10.236.109.52 with SMTP id r40mr138789yhg.8.1296067682491; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:02 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.29.16 with SMTP id c16ls179948anc.5.p; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.190.18 with SMTP id n18mr2144025anf.32.1296067681832; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.190.18 with SMTP id n18mr2144024anf.32.1296067681808; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f53.google.com (mail-yw0-f53.google.com [209.85.213.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a26si5819647ana.5.2011.01.26.10.48.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.53 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.213.53; Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6so269463ywa.12 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.195.15 with SMTP id s15mr1577849ybf.94.1296067681372; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b8sm446266ybn.3.2011.01.26.10.47.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:48:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:47:55 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI Message-ID: <20110126184755.GB38730@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.53 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline I've been collecting notes on good typesetting style for Lojban: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=typography One of the open questions related to the fact that we allow 1, 2, 3, &c to mean pa, re, ci, &c. Since we do this, how should we treat 123.5? What about 1,024? '.' and ',' are both valid lerfu, so is it ambiguous to write "1,234.56"? camxes parses this, but drops the decimal point. ;-) (I'm ignoring the issue also that these are not universal conventions for writing numbers) Then do you want to allow 1:23:59 to mean 1 hour, 23 minutes, 59 seconds? Can you pronounce ':' pi'e? These seem to be natural questions that arise from allowing 1 => pa. I think your too clever by half example is a great contribution to this question. -Alan On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:37:09PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, .alyn.post. > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that > zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. This excludes > " from being used. Nevertheless, I give you points for > cleverness there. :-D > > If one wanted to be too clever by half, one could argue that " is a > representation of the cmevla {.quot.} like 4 is a representation of the > namcu valsi {vo}. > > -Alan > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid, > although I > > could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or > at > > least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter > delimiters. > > > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar > > is: > > > > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF? > > / EOF > > > > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space, > > which includes punctuation like ? and !.) > > > > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe > > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting > > question: > > > > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is > > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits > > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted > > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the > > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that > > coincidentally is .y. > > > > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it > > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage > > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that > > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been > > experimenting with Y handling. > > > > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency? > > What do you think? > > > > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage: > > > > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?" > > > > And he opined no. > > > > -Alan > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only; > quotes > > a > > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or whitespace > > (in > > > writing)". > > > > > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces > > > > > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know if > it > > > will make a difference > > > > > > mu'o mi'e ros > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post. > > > <[1][2][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed definition > > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing > > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are > > > shown here. > > > > > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI > > > > > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post > > > -> ZOhOI-clause > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces? > > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause > > > > > > CMAVO <- ... > > > / ZOhOI > > > / ... > > > > > > sumti-6 <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-clause free* > > > / ... > > > > > > known-cmavo-sa <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing. > > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI' > > > ;; > > > known-cmavo-pre <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre clause, > > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is > > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this > > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to > > > present to the BPFK. > > > > > > -Alan > > > -- > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > [2][3][4]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [3][4][5]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [4][5][6]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [6][7]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [7][8]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [8][9]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:[9][10]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > > 2. mailto:[10][11]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 3. mailto:[11][12]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 4. [12][13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [13][14]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [14][15]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [15][16]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [17]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [18]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [19]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:[20]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:[21]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 3. mailto:[22]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 4. mailto:[23]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 5. [24]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 6. mailto:[25]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 7. mailto:[26]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 8. [27]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 9. mailto:[28]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 10. mailto:[29]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 11. mailto:[30]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 12. [31]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 13. mailto:[32]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 14. mailto:[33]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 15. [34]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [35]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [36]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [37]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 3. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 5. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 6. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 7. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 8. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 10. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 12. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 17. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 18. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 19. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 20. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 21. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 22. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 23. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 24. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 25. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 26. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 27. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 28. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 30. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 36. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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