From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBCf3YHqBBoEsQRudQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 26 10:57:51 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiAYs-0000OL-OD; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:51 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf564399ywh.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=Xrmmr/UzZ/20WUSPfAEFmfPihzwer7EYIWrlZrnoLv0=; b=XYDqDjh9UAu+3yfRWhhJ7uuWWdfFjRgsNCbdeG3BCMgU4jM26KCjogGB0P02To/PRo TtP8Zc8VMow/x2GiN9jmzIjEJfXWPRdzLTFk8tISBJ3qOkZNDYRETD5yfRzhjEyN77nu G6IZ8boSWr1hBW1we6qKVA+BQC0xs4TNy+6S4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=GZhYTgVdlsglAuNR99VxJ+jwX/7ykATrwX9mLzXigl7B9yUNTQ4mIybMknZalKe6Eg Msz8bMAlCh+yhkKV/WtG7vRMR3VcFlPeXcWEKBT2dUE34GCOdJDfqPItChfQGlUYXrRy XeogBNLy5g1h+Jh7P3UBZfvrwoa3uvCMzbSOo= Received: by 10.100.123.19 with SMTP id v19mr304681anc.55.1296068255792; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.26.21 with SMTP id 21ls181973anz.2.p; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.92.5 with SMTP id p5mr1460692anb.56.1296068255070; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.92.5 with SMTP id p5mr1460691anb.56.1296068254963; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gx0-f171.google.com (mail-gx0-f171.google.com [209.85.161.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b20si593913ana.4.2011.01.26.10.57.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.161.171 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.161.171; Received: by gxk8 with SMTP id 8so274560gxk.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.101.16 with SMTP id y16mr794029agb.139.1296068254558; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 10sm1315418yhl.18.2011.01.26.10.57.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:57:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:57:29 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI Message-ID: <20110126185729.GC38730@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.161.171 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline I added this to the typography page, describing it as a thought experiment. Thank you. -Alan On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:37:09PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:56 PM, .alyn.post. > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > xorxes pointed out earlier today in a different thread that > zoi's delimiters must be valid lojban words. This excludes > " from being used. Nevertheless, I give you points for > cleverness there. :-D > > If one wanted to be too clever by half, one could argue that " is a > representation of the cmevla {.quot.} like 4 is a representation of the > namcu valsi {vo}. > > -Alan > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:40:59PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > I agree that zo'oi "Where are your keys?" should not be valid, > although I > > could see an argument for zoi " Where are your keys? " being made, or > at > > least for a zoi-like word which accepts non-word, non-letter > delimiters. > > > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:30 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > Good catch, thank you. The definition of spaces in the (my) grammar > > is: > > > > spaces <- ( comma* space-char )+ EOF? > > / EOF > > > > Which includes what I understand to be a pause. (comma and space, > > which includes punctuation like ? and !.) > > > > I've been experimenting with this part of the morphology, I believe > > camxes includes Y (hesitation) here, which is an interesting > > question: > > > > For ZOhOI, LAhOI, &c, anything that quotes a single word, is > > hesitation allowed between zo'oi and the quoted word? zo permits > > hesitation between between zo and the quoted word, but the quoted > > word is Loban. If we permit hesitation between ZOhOI and the > > quoting word, we don't allow ourselves to quote a foreign word that > > coincidentally is .y. > > > > In theory, we could use ZOI and delimit the word in this case, so it > > isn't a show-stopper. camxes actually doesn't permit this usage > > either (though it is grammatical, you wind up with a parse tree that > > is quoting nothing rather than quoting .y.), which is why I've been > > experimenting with Y handling. > > > > Interesting question, nevertheless. Accuracy versus consistency? > > What do you think? > > > > I also asked xalbo whether this this was valid usage: > > > > zo'oi "Where are your Keys?" > > > > And he opined no. > > > > -Alan > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 01:19:59PM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > > From jbovlaste, zo'oi acts to "quote next non-Lojban word only; > quotes > > a > > > single non-Lojban word delimited by pauses (in speech) or whitespace > > (in > > > writing)". > > > > > > It seems to say that the pauses are required. ie > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI spaces non-lojban-word spaces > > > > > > I don't know enough about the parsing of non-lojban-word to know if > it > > > will make a difference > > > > > > mu'o mi'e ros > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, .alyn.post. > > > <[1][2][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > > > In discussion with xalbo on #lojban, This is the proposed definition > > > for ZOhOI as expressed in PEG. The '...' productions are existing > > > rules in the grammar that surround the new definitions, which are > > > shown here. > > > > > > ZOhOI <- &cmavo ( z o h o i ) &post-word -> ZOhOI > > > > > > ZOhOI-clause <- ZOhOI-pre ZOhOI-post > > > -> ZOhOI-clause > > > ZOhOI-pre <- pre-clause ZOhOI `spaces? non-lojban-word `spaces? > > > ZOhOI-post <- post-clause > > > > > > CMAVO <- ... > > > / ZOhOI > > > / ... > > > > > > sumti-6 <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-clause free* > > > / ... > > > > > > known-cmavo-sa <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > ;; I'm not certain of the postfix to use here, this needs testing. > > > ;; It may be just 'ZOhOI' > > > ;; > > > known-cmavo-pre <- ... > > > / ZOhOI-pre > > > / ... > > > > > > There are a small number of issues surrounding the ZOhOI-pre clause, > > > and what exactly consitutes a non-lojban-word. All of this is > > > untested, I wrote this up as a proof of concept. I'm hoping this > > > can be a contribution to a definition of ZOhOI formal enough to > > > present to the BPFK. > > > > > > -Alan > > > -- > > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > [2][3][4]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [3][4][5]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [4][5][6]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [6][7]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [7][8]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [8][9]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:[9][10]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > > 2. mailto:[10][11]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 3. mailto:[11][12]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 4. [12][13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [13][14]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [14][15]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [15][16]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [17]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [18]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [19]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:[20]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:[21]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 3. mailto:[22]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 4. mailto:[23]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 5. [24]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 6. mailto:[25]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 7. mailto:[26]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 8. [27]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 9. mailto:[28]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 10. mailto:[29]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 11. mailto:[30]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 12. [31]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 13. mailto:[32]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 14. mailto:[33]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 15. [34]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [35]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [36]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [37]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 3. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 5. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 6. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 7. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 8. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 10. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 12. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 17. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 18. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 19. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 20. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 21. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 22. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 23. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 24. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 25. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 26. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 27. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 28. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 30. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 36. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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