From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDF94PqBBoExqQGCg@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 26 21:00:06 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiJxh-0000JB-Bl; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:00:06 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf911254gwb.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=H/mhqiCdiiZ9iKIDWlKVnLjw60pW63jsmEjLRaQbD94=; b=kizx19MaVdZnjQyTnh7qM9NVwaTw/X9o9eQfkm0icRhJEsMy97GNpN90LrKqAqGDfc 4sbOHV5AGhQNFkFpYfnjFCz5PVC9MXPoSYItjvK1/EhJUs+eGwwEjnxbgSc0JHw11HAD CmEj1xpU8HNC1RAG5uhy+thpHtK/9n142RBhY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3qVDijbDRwaBhlrSk8P1F4hvJMR6TqkL1M2wkDHen8RGamOwnolA6dvFt2CfKOwfn8 gpwIY56T1wIjR+xWVgSS4fVTd4eONFmlxGr0WjIXuas/Stj/y6DAwf+8KCzcC0HCM195 zCkZOW5sinIdIm7PAxtzaFBFTZySJYEXLAT1o= Received: by 10.90.116.12 with SMTP id o12mr143720agc.49.1296104389048; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.200.3 with SMTP id eu3ls1360959ibb.1.p; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.36.66 with SMTP id s2mr145433ibd.5.1296104387984; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.36.66 with SMTP id s2mr145432ibd.5.1296104387945; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f173.google.com (mail-iy0-f173.google.com [209.85.210.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu19si3900451ibb.5.2011.01.26.20.59.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.173; Received: by mail-iy0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 19so1202761iye.18 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.166.200 with SMTP id p8mr1630240icy.87.1296104386752; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.172.67 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> <20110126185729.GC38730@alice.local> <20110127023614.GE38730@alice.local> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:59:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8ade906f6a049accd1d1 --90e6ba6e8ade906f6a049accd1d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Then the decimal point (and comma) should not be valid shorthand (in my opinion). Disclaimer: my opinion is subject to wild fluctuations and is of little relevance to anyone else. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > The problem is if you want to allow a decimal point (or other > shorthands overloading the meaning of a symbol) then you will need to > put it in the parsing rules to figure out whether a dot is a decimal > point (only allowed in a string of PA for example) or a pause. > > Straight substitution would be in adequate to handle this. > > On Thursday, January 27, 2011, Alex Rozenshteyn > wrote: > > Regarding the response to the third point, couldn't you just have an > exhaustive list of the shorthand transformations (wouldn't you need one > anyway) and preprocess the text, transforming the shorthand to the words > they represent? > > > > I feel like the biggest problem is not that of parsing. > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM, .alyn.post. < > alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 08:18:02PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> pe'i there should be 3 ways of writing lojban: > >> > > > > After a brief brainstorm, I could support these three modes in my > > parser should that be desireable. > > > >> 1. Strict: the only characters allowed (barring alphabet shifts) are > >> lojban characters. > > > > The PEG grammar currently allows digits and some punctuation. I'd > > need to add an immediate rule when these productions are matched to > > reject those productions if strict mode was enable and forbidden > > characters appear. > > > >> 2. Visually mnemonic: characters such as quotation marks and > parentheses > >> etc. are allowed to make skimming the text easier; there is no > need to > >> standardize (although suggestions might be welcome) what means > what > >> because the characters will be ignored (treated as whitespace) by > the > >> parser, and so every spoken syllable will still need to be > spelled > >> out. > > > > This is how the PEG grammar works now. I believe my parser allows > > more punctuation than camxes, which is a trivial fix should that be > > a problem. > > > >> 3. Visual shorthand: It will develop anyway, so it's best to > standardize > >> it. e.g. {xu} can be *replaced* by a question mark, {to} and > {to'o} > >> might be *replaced* by left and right parentheses, etc. It would > make > >> sense to speak of {xubu}, the grapheme representing the cmavo > {xu} > >> > > > > This would require defining what this visual shorthand was and > > modifying any rule affected. It would also require not permitting > > the defined shorthand punctuation to be whitespace. > > > > -Alan > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba6e8ade906f6a049accd1d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then the decimal point (and comma) should not be valid shorthand (in my opi= nion).

Disclaimer: my opinion is subject to wild fluctuations and is= of little relevance to anyone else.

On W= ed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem is if= you want to allow a decimal point (or other
shorthands overloading the meaning of a symbol) then you will need to
put it in the parsing rules to figure out whether a dot is a decimal
point (only allowed in a string of PA for example) or a pause.

Straight substitution would be in adequate to handle this.

On Thursday, January 27, 2011, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding the response to the third point, couldn't you just have = an exhaustive list of the shorthand transformations (wouldn't you need = one anyway) and preprocess the text, transforming the shorthand to the word= s they represent?
>
> I feel like the biggest problem is not that of parsing.
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:<= br> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 08:18:02PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
>> =A0 =A0pe'i there should be 3 ways of writing lojban:
>>
>
> After a brief brainstorm, I could support these three modes in my
> parser should that be desireable.
>
>> =A0 =A0 1. Strict: the only characters allowed (barring alphabet s= hifts) are
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0lojban characters.
>
> The PEG grammar currently allows digits and some punctuation. =A0I'= ;d
> need to add an immediate rule when these productions are matched to > reject those productions if strict mode was enable and forbidden
> characters appear.
>
>> =A0 =A0 2. Visually mnemonic: characters such as quotation marks a= nd parentheses
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0etc. are allowed to make skimming the text easier; = there is no need to
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0standardize (although suggestions might be welcome)= what means what
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0because the characters will be ignored (treated as = whitespace) by the
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0parser, and so every spoken syllable will still nee= d to be spelled
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0out.
>
> This is how the PEG grammar works now. =A0I believe my parser allows > more punctuation than camxes, which is a trivial fix should that be > a problem.
>
>> =A0 =A0 3. Visual shorthand: It will develop anyway, so it's b= est to standardize
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0it. e.g. {xu} can be *replaced* by a question mark,= {to} and {to'o}
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0might be *replaced* by left and right parentheses, = etc. It would make
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0sense to speak of {xubu}, the grapheme representing= the cmavo {xu}
>>
>
> This would require defining what this visual shorthand was and
> modifying any rule affected. =A0It would also require not permitting > the defined shorthand punctuation to be whitespace.
>
> -Alan
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--90e6ba6e8ade906f6a049accd1d1--