From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERDgg4TqBBoE9W-EQw@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 26 21:26:10 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiKMu-0007f3-7E; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:26:10 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf826759yia.16 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FjSdxTzkv0B4cv8xe2wR/p8aMIZjoofOITsoFPQFvew=; b=rZPy8rIFkma2/X4vgwD1N3M7Wy4wBRMj8SrUx5NcI/IGxASPDRIM3gqJdJHUu3uMgP GKdWy6M9aahDt88sXSha14U2/D/WFpqn3CdZvb9uXSMmCIpkfAzmiUY8qXrTucF2zOyz QUgCieJ8nQJO/Ji2aNzQ8+0YjL4eCY/30060s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=U1f9jbxeEy60RMytCzpaRdvEpYea7eix4jrS+2oTpjLd3LvB8NM3KYLsBf7LBjVkJL aEk0f8E3K7N3A8t5bDDXX3QMwBiW7hjgBev/wAwhz3dWH8vL2KP6YjC3ge6CuxWRM/qQ ks7jo8lHI+kVW5jo+RMU06dqcrZHjtwv1vXp0= Received: by 10.236.108.34 with SMTP id p22mr20812yhg.6.1296105952288; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls1375449ibi.2.p; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr146876ibb.1.1296105950883; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr146874ibb.1.1296105950830; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf5si2061802icb.2.2011.01.26.21.25.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by mail-iw0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 40so1936801iwn.0 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.85.207 with SMTP id p15mr411151ibl.84.1296105949637; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.153.199 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:25:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110125204806.GB35838@alice.local> <20110126033008.GA37422@alice.local> <20110126035654.GB37422@alice.local> <20110126185729.GC38730@alice.local> <20110127023614.GE38730@alice.local> From: Ross Ogilvie Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:25:19 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] proposed grammar definition for ZOhOI To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485eba6e2b82e50049acd2e7b --001485eba6e2b82e50049acd2e7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, overloading symbols leads to a complicated v-a isomorphism. The point I want to make though is that you want to use introduce symbols for shorthand it gets complicated very quickly. Looking at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/shorthand+symbols shows that if you want to introduce shorthand you will 1) have to make arbitrary, difficult decisions about which word should get which symbol eg. do you assign ( to {vei} or to {to} OR 2) accept this kind of overloading OR 3) only make a minimal number of assignments for the completely non-contentious cases (ie, just assign the 0-9 to no-so) OR 4) some other solution I haven't thought of mu'o mi'e ros On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > Then the decimal point (and comma) should not be valid shorthand (in my > opinion). > > Disclaimer: my opinion is subject to wild fluctuations and is of little > relevance to anyone else. > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > >> The problem is if you want to allow a decimal point (or other >> shorthands overloading the meaning of a symbol) then you will need to >> put it in the parsing rules to figure out whether a dot is a decimal >> point (only allowed in a string of PA for example) or a pause. >> >> Straight substitution would be in adequate to handle this. >> >> On Thursday, January 27, 2011, Alex Rozenshteyn >> wrote: >> > Regarding the response to the third point, couldn't you just have an >> exhaustive list of the shorthand transformations (wouldn't you need one >> anyway) and preprocess the text, transforming the shorthand to the words >> they represent? >> > >> > I feel like the biggest problem is not that of parsing. >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM, .alyn.post. < >> alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: >> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 08:18:02PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >> >> pe'i there should be 3 ways of writing lojban: >> >> >> > >> > After a brief brainstorm, I could support these three modes in my >> > parser should that be desireable. >> > >> >> 1. Strict: the only characters allowed (barring alphabet shifts) >> are >> >> lojban characters. >> > >> > The PEG grammar currently allows digits and some punctuation. I'd >> > need to add an immediate rule when these productions are matched to >> > reject those productions if strict mode was enable and forbidden >> > characters appear. >> > >> >> 2. Visually mnemonic: characters such as quotation marks and >> parentheses >> >> etc. are allowed to make skimming the text easier; there is no >> need to >> >> standardize (although suggestions might be welcome) what means >> what >> >> because the characters will be ignored (treated as whitespace) >> by the >> >> parser, and so every spoken syllable will still need to be >> spelled >> >> out. >> > >> > This is how the PEG grammar works now. I believe my parser allows >> > more punctuation than camxes, which is a trivial fix should that be >> > a problem. >> > >> >> 3. Visual shorthand: It will develop anyway, so it's best to >> standardize >> >> it. e.g. {xu} can be *replaced* by a question mark, {to} and >> {to'o} >> >> might be *replaced* by left and right parentheses, etc. It would >> make >> >> sense to speak of {xubu}, the grapheme representing the cmavo >> {xu} >> >> >> > >> > This would require defining what this visual shorthand was and >> > modifying any rule affected. It would also require not permitting >> > the defined shorthand punctuation to be whitespace. >> > >> > -Alan >> > -- >> > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Alex R >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001485eba6e2b82e50049acd2e7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, overloading symbols leads to a complicated v-a isomorphism.

Th= e point I want to make though is that you want to use introduce symbols for= shorthand it gets complicated very quickly. Looking at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/shorthand+= symbols shows that if you want to introduce shorthand you will
1) have to make arbitrary, difficult decisions about which word should get = which symbol eg. do you assign ( to {vei} or to {to}
OR
2) accept thi= s kind of overloading
OR
3) only make a minimal number of assignments= for the completely non-contentious cases (ie, just assign the 0-9 to no-so= )
OR
4) some other solution I haven't thought of

mu'o mi= 9;e ros

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:59 PM, = Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Then the decimal point (and comma) should n= ot be valid shorthand (in my opinion).

Disclaimer: my opinion is sub= ject to wild fluctuations and is of little relevance to anyone else.


On Wed, Jan= 26, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrot= e:
The problem is if you w= ant to allow a decimal point (or other
shorthands overloading the meaning of a symbol) then you will need to
put it in the parsing rules to figure out whether a dot is a decimal
point (only allowed in a string of PA for example) or a pause.

Straight substitution would be in adequate to handle this.

On Thursday, January 27, 2011, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding the response to the third point, couldn't you just have = an exhaustive list of the shorthand transformations (wouldn't you need = one anyway) and preprocess the text, transforming the shorthand to the word= s they represent?
>
> I feel like the biggest problem is not that of parsing.
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.o= rg> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 08:18:02PM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
>> =A0 =A0pe'i there should be 3 ways of writing lojban:
>>
>
> After a brief brainstorm, I could support these three modes in my
> parser should that be desireable.
>
>> =A0 =A0 1. Strict: the only characters allowed (barring alphabet s= hifts) are
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0lojban characters.
>
> The PEG grammar currently allows digits and some punctuation. =A0I'= ;d
> need to add an immediate rule when these productions are matched to > reject those productions if strict mode was enable and forbidden
> characters appear.
>
>> =A0 =A0 2. Visually mnemonic: characters such as quotation marks a= nd parentheses
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0etc. are allowed to make skimming the text easier; = there is no need to
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0standardize (although suggestions might be welcome)= what means what
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0because the characters will be ignored (treated as = whitespace) by the
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0parser, and so every spoken syllable will still nee= d to be spelled
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0out.
>
> This is how the PEG grammar works now. =A0I believe my parser allows > more punctuation than camxes, which is a trivial fix should that be > a problem.
>
>> =A0 =A0 3. Visual shorthand: It will develop anyway, so it's b= est to standardize
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0it. e.g. {xu} can be *replaced* by a question mark,= {to} and {to'o}
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0might be *replaced* by left and right parentheses, = etc. It would make
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0sense to speak of {xubu}, the grapheme representing= the cmavo {xu}
>>
>
> This would require defining what this visual shorthand was and
> modifying any rule affected. =A0It would also require not permitting > the defined shorthand punctuation to be whitespace.
>
> -Alan
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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