From lojban+bncCIXohuTaHxCzxpLpBBoE56zFnw@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 08:58:45 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PaWh4-00048B-SX; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:45 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf5661213fxm.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AMBZaTeW/eO0ro9PhwvdOLlN1/yB9bFNPdtYMhXuB1U=; b=QF7fwvbEZ4XkBly3cUQC+mCtMrZphS2fh2jwRWzeMW0uZfwSSw2momnQ44EesUejj0 T2/Z4K/cMXGtIoEcJ+LZmhMxkk78aAOJ2A2SjqY4IULTlc6RIB9a3swiVg9R2CMEO8We Y7NVcUyQEckuWsjgRsZJTPVmEviPAratysWBQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NIjrKRhxKxXvv5YorTa5qTjxx0RcJwEL1Yzvbf0Shamuic6HFwBjI1TSSGLRrM3X3S QzRPC4dq+wh4W4FSG0UnQBJeiERNe0kbxAqyqVYVvHxPFuQW4Tj+jbAoUJ5synbk9dHc 2FQmPa35pyVzBL6G6gNLf69Dm0cbiFDR5/oGo= Received: by 10.223.105.198 with SMTP id u6mr1486263fao.12.1294246707766; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.7.80 with SMTP id c16ls4538159fac.3.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.122.131 with SMTP id l3mr1602917far.24.1294246706080; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.122.131 with SMTP id l3mr1602916far.24.1294246706036; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com (mail-bw0-f43.google.com [209.85.214.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n23si1967580fam.9.2011.01.05.08.58.24; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.43; Received: by mail-bw0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 14so17204582bwz.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.46.154 with SMTP id j26mr17125344bkf.134.1294246702979; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.71.134 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 08:58:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 08:58:22 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Robin. You're absolutely right. A language can be finished even when there is an infinity of work left to be done in its universe. Lojban has been a finished language for years. I drifted away and lost interest not because of the language itself, but the culture of perfectionism. -Eppcott On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > Ivo: Sorry, this isn't really about you; you just happen to be the > person I decided to respond to. =A0Lots of people have said similar > things. > > > On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 11:02:28PM +0100, Ivo Doko wrote: >> On 4 January 2011 21:57, Lindar wrote: >> >> > I'm -not- going to vote for lojban. It has not been and definitely >> > isn't now a candidate auxlang. >> > >> >> I absolutely agree. I love lojban, but it is far from ready to be >> a serious auxlang candidate. Even Esperanto is a much better >> auxlang candidate than lojban at the moment - it's true that it's >> far from being completely irregular and logical and that it's only >> suited for people whose native language is an Indo-European >> language, but it's a fully defined, complete and functioning >> language, which lojban is very far from being at the moment. > > "very far"? =A0 *Really*?? > > Y'all have weird standards/requirements. =A0Lojban is *FAR* more fully > defined than Esperanto. > > No, really: it is. =A0Esperanto doesn't have a formal grammar of any > kind, for starters. > > We know far more about how Lojban grammatical structures work than > *any other actually spoken language on the planet*. > > We have already won that prize: Lojban is the most precisely, > formally specified language that there is, for any language with its > number of speakers or higher. =A0Period. =A0I challenge anyone to find > anything even *remotely close* to the CLL in terms of covering every > *possible* grammatical combination. =A0Even if you can find such a > thing, the formal grammar takes it so far ahead of everything else > they can't possibly hope to catch up. > > That's "fully defined"; now for "complete and functioning". > > The reason that Lojban *seems* flaky is: > > 1. =A0When people have trouble saying something in Esperanto, they > simply import a word or phrase or grammatical structure from a > natlang, and everyone's OK with this. =A0Current Lojban culture > refuses to do that. > > =A0As a historical note, this *was* acceptable, to some extent, > =A0around the time the CLL was published, which I think was why they > =A0thought the language was all-the-way-done. =A0See noralujv if you > =A0don't believe me; there are some natlang imports there that would > =A0cause most current Lojbanists to scream. > > 2. =A0We all are a bunch of picky, whiny, geeks (that is intended more > as a factual description rather than an insult), so our response to > "huh, I don't see how to do that" tends to be, since we can't just > import a natlang solution, "OMG LODGEBANS ARE > BROKEN!!!!!1!!one!!11!!cos(0)!1!". > > 3. =A0We all have a tendency to do this *before* actually learning the > language all that well. =A0The truth of the matter is that you really > *can* say anything you want in Lojban; LNC and alis prove that > pretty conclusively, I think. =A0Most of the "problems" that people > freak out about are already well understood by oldbies. > > 4. =A0Nobody shouts "Wow this is well specified!!!" at the top of > their lungs, but they certainly shout their complaints. =A0Geeks have > a shared culture that compliments are private and insults are > public; it's deeply fucked up. =A0See > http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/ > > I can say anything I need to say in Lojban, modulo my own vocabulary > knowledge. =A0This puts it ahead of 99.999% of conlangs. =A0Saying that > it is very far from being complete and functioning is ridiculous, > and pretty insulting to a lot of people's hard work. > > -Robin > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.