From lojban+bncCIXohuTaHxDd-JLpBBoEdHe3Lg@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 10:46:04 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PaYMx-0004f0-LE; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:46:04 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf5694910fxm.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iuJlL9jFvL33eFikX8vyzN7dnE45RYQ5jfWaLlv6cd0=; b=rBnhaNe+Y1ZPNIwUEytDAOHNtNjLOtUlKCr/rGLWnpVEUR2saPr9Efm6jm2olGuw9e wcoj4YZCS2fwRplGn8I5rfzN3feVlAp8/OJHyIHGD6nXi8mIOuvZgTLUgRXRFy/K/L8Q kLUS5hmqDAw55PbLrvIE0muPNew21TznJRUEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DaLotbvgVgfD59SX2VYkvK3wH/c2S5xXpIXWVEDKPYcLCm/nTsaAnid1CtHVVa6wVh 9TnjA62esPFzbL/DqkniHwQrgt4a95Itr6T5EClWeAAYnvDxefp0KNgSEJnwFQQ0+8UC w6nn7zHF+ZCqv4Wy6joZCDEZa7SaIjiL7euxQ= Received: by 10.223.106.12 with SMTP id v12mr1500539fao.1.1294253149819; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.49.147 with SMTP id v19ls6728665bkf.1.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.82.147 with SMTP id b19mr1484450bkl.6.1294253148800; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.82.147 with SMTP id b19mr1484449bkl.6.1294253148772; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f51.google.com (mail-bw0-f51.google.com [209.85.214.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n19si4375508bks.1.2011.01.05.10.45.47; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.51; Received: by mail-bw0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 10so8717823bwz.10 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.103.133 with SMTP id k5mr3864358bko.53.1294253146487; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.71.134 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 10:45:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:45:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, I also like lesswrong a lot. -Matt On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > seconded. =A0Totally agree. =A0Awesome rant. > But I'm really replying because... you read lesswrong too robin?! =A0That= 's > awesome! =A0I just discovered that site like a month or two ago and have = been > steadily making my way through the sequences. =A0Awesome site. > > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: >> >> Ivo: Sorry, this isn't really about you; you just happen to be the >> person I decided to respond to. =A0Lots of people have said similar >> things. >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 11:02:28PM +0100, Ivo Doko wrote: >> > On 4 January 2011 21:57, Lindar wrote: >> > >> > > I'm -not- going to vote for lojban. It has not been and definitely >> > > isn't now a candidate auxlang. >> > > >> > >> > I absolutely agree. I love lojban, but it is far from ready to be >> > a serious auxlang candidate. Even Esperanto is a much better >> > auxlang candidate than lojban at the moment - it's true that it's >> > far from being completely irregular and logical and that it's only >> > suited for people whose native language is an Indo-European >> > language, but it's a fully defined, complete and functioning >> > language, which lojban is very far from being at the moment. >> >> "very far"? =A0 *Really*?? >> >> Y'all have weird standards/requirements. =A0Lojban is *FAR* more fully >> defined than Esperanto. >> >> No, really: it is. =A0Esperanto doesn't have a formal grammar of any >> kind, for starters. >> >> We know far more about how Lojban grammatical structures work than >> *any other actually spoken language on the planet*. >> >> We have already won that prize: Lojban is the most precisely, >> formally specified language that there is, for any language with its >> number of speakers or higher. =A0Period. =A0I challenge anyone to find >> anything even *remotely close* to the CLL in terms of covering every >> *possible* grammatical combination. =A0Even if you can find such a >> thing, the formal grammar takes it so far ahead of everything else >> they can't possibly hope to catch up. >> >> That's "fully defined"; now for "complete and functioning". >> >> The reason that Lojban *seems* flaky is: >> >> 1. =A0When people have trouble saying something in Esperanto, they >> simply import a word or phrase or grammatical structure from a >> natlang, and everyone's OK with this. =A0Current Lojban culture >> refuses to do that. >> >> =A0As a historical note, this *was* acceptable, to some extent, >> =A0around the time the CLL was published, which I think was why they >> =A0thought the language was all-the-way-done. =A0See noralujv if you >> =A0don't believe me; there are some natlang imports there that would >> =A0cause most current Lojbanists to scream. >> >> 2. =A0We all are a bunch of picky, whiny, geeks (that is intended more >> as a factual description rather than an insult), so our response to >> "huh, I don't see how to do that" tends to be, since we can't just >> import a natlang solution, "OMG LODGEBANS ARE >> BROKEN!!!!!1!!one!!11!!cos(0)!1!". >> >> 3. =A0We all have a tendency to do this *before* actually learning the >> language all that well. =A0The truth of the matter is that you really >> *can* say anything you want in Lojban; LNC and alis prove that >> pretty conclusively, I think. =A0Most of the "problems" that people >> freak out about are already well understood by oldbies. >> >> 4. =A0Nobody shouts "Wow this is well specified!!!" at the top of >> their lungs, but they certainly shout their complaints. =A0Geeks have >> a shared culture that compliments are private and insults are >> public; it's deeply fucked up. =A0See >> http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate/ >> >> I can say anything I need to say in Lojban, modulo my own vocabulary >> knowledge. =A0This puts it ahead of 99.999% of conlangs. =A0Saying that >> it is very far from being complete and functioning is ridiculous, >> and pretty insulting to a lot of people's hard work. >> >> -Robin >> >> -- >> http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot >> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" >> is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.