From lojban+bncCInbwevEGxDw_JPpBBoEaqvsvQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 15:27:58 2011 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Paclm-0006gu-Cw; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:58 -0800 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf6356379pxi.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:x-mathnet-spam-score :x-rcvd-authsender:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NlAZVS/gj1TH7EhTWWcWOU5JwuaXE+P7LEXH5SUctvA=; b=0ke321CvjFiSVsh1ichqayP8BDRPUbSr0ZzWoGEVwdOBXXgFiv2QtHz28VMN7sJx8Z nPe4z6S7sSa+ojvuG11R7LzO2j30NhsfvPVSnLvn4WWRzaA9ux9c2Z3SkRyOW9JPg/5w 21vgfNvLdFUx55QhWQo5mU0w9zEDy+uFoWc3o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-mathnet-spam-score:x-rcvd-authsender :date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=P08+rgPsVPXQFuVzo91GTWGpc7X+lshDLeUv5F+YdnUbewKuCnec07eG9ImPa55S3f Yy5/HeekN0CeFe70rCXytiTXQz3JoptTs7jwkBp+EFGY4Yl1MOQ+KxaAnKROMfeAxCI8 3He7gVNgjsxzSB1DIkp9oIdV+IgAiQixE/veA= Received: by 10.142.152.26 with SMTP id z26mr27056wfd.13.1294270064859; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls25108463wfb.0.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.169.14 with SMTP id r14mr171369wfe.51.1294270063812; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.169.14 with SMTP id r14mr171368wfe.51.1294270063769; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumac.math.ucla.edu (sumac.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.21]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f13si190745wfo.4.2011.01.05.15.27.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of jimc@math.ucla.edu designates 128.97.4.21 as permitted sender) client-ip=128.97.4.21; Received: by sumac.math.ucla.edu (Postfix, from userid 1886) id 42F2941C61; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) X-Mathnet-Spam-Score: 0.8/5.0 X-Rcvd-AuthSender: from simba.math.ucla.edu (simba.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.125]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jimc@math.ucla.edu) by sumac.math.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA48841C61 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:27:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:27:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Carter To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <201101051658.16043.phma@phma.optus.nu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LNX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jimc@math.ucla.edu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of jimc@math.ucla.edu designates 128.97.4.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jimc@math.ucla.edu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Wed, 5 Jan 2011, Ivo Doko wrote: > ... > Vocabulary assimilation is unavoidable and you can't possibly expect every > native speaker of lojban to know which new brivla will create an ambiguity, > so native lojban speakers would naturally start to incorporate words from > other languages in their vocabulary, those words would inevitably create > ambiguities, and after a couple of decades its precious ambiguity would be > nowhere. (And that's without even mentioning other ways in which a language > evolves when it's used by people as their main language for everyday > communication.) I haven't been doing too much lately with Lojban, but back in the Loglan days I translated about 10,000 words of text into Loglan while creating only four new brivla (torus, to use in "bagel"; noodle; bear (the animal, which wasn't in old Loglan); and oar). All the rest could be represented by lujvo, if I looked carefully in the word list. I expect that brivla will be coined rarely once the language is "complete", but novel lujvo will coruscate off the tongues of the lojbanistani. Particularly if we pay attention to compatible definitions and reliable combining rules. Your point is well taken that languages drift, particularly if used by the workers, peasants and soldiers. Even so, the scope for drift in grammar and syntax is limited because the grammar is so well defined. I would expect to see more drift in phoneme sounds and in the usage of words, just as we see in natural languages such as English. As for making definitions unambiguous, words are defined circularly by brief texts made of other words which are defined in terms of the first one. I think we don't really have a good handle on making our definitions provably unambiguous; instead, our goal has been to make them less ambiguous than typical natlangs, relying on a human's nonlogical ability to understand what a word means when given a few cues and examples. I think it's less useful to ask whether Lojban or Esperanto is "finished", and more useful to ask if it can do the job proposed for it: use as an auxlang. I think both languages get a passing grade on that point. James F. Carter Voice 310 825 2897 FAX 310 206 6673 UCLA-Mathnet; 6115 MSA; 520 Portola Plaza; Los Angeles, CA, USA 90095-1555 Email: jimc@math.ucla.edu http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc (q.v. for PGP key) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.