From lojban+bncCPGMg4mHHBD3wpTpBBoEjQG74w@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 17:57:26 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Paf6P-0008C5-M3; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:26 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf53710606qwd.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Yi9vghIv/crWegKJofYmLDPF5Vr9EUpBAL7Ybi/wHJY=; b=Z8DHAq7o+ExXVecf14eQu8n8BM5PpqvbUqX4acEuycH3lhi3+G+OsLQA0qJyGcJjKm 3T1dJ5+6qX7t3anVigQ2hTB9/l8bggiWSPzJhEGTAC+W3fEcWQgjhnsjFYvL0CQxg2Uu 1RADaS0URADvnRqcCFNF5K8dRXHbxn14QuQ6o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KjdBRhMYWLAHyeg9ZgZSO34eoJzlCC7V28M4rmk3lke5/D8HmhyVzZjxlt7ZQBoCXd c2oI/2b0SSTxtZN4rvp9uiLonCLpOnhIlt+VZii0WnxrAfHI80BCFXSb8u5Y1y3I7b7C vjsCurJTFhl8yf/1AIT6DzjQzl1D1Mph1za3w= Received: by 10.224.47.143 with SMTP id n15mr1322217qaf.31.1294279031498; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:11 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.179.137 with SMTP id bq9ls3814794qab.6.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.73.133 with SMTP id q5mr2204606qaj.24.1294279030480; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.73.133 with SMTP id q5mr2204605qaj.24.1294279030466; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f52.google.com (mail-qw0-f52.google.com [209.85.216.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s6si4407622qco.13.2011.01.05.17.57.09; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.52; Received: by mail-qw0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 4so17451205qwi.25 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.95.211 with SMTP id e19mr20973152qcn.53.1294279029346; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.176.71 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 17:57:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 02:57:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: ivo.doko@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ivo.doko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636427058c8d067049923d1b1 --001636427058c8d067049923d1b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6 January 2011 02:42, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > >> On 6 January 2011 01:40, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> actually I read it the same way. >>> >>> Esperanto is X, Y, and Z. lojban is far from being [that] at the momen= t. >>> =3D >>> lojban is far from X, Y, AND Z. >>> =3D >>> lojban is far from X AND lojban is far from Y AND lojban is far from Z. >>> >>> If that's not what you meant to communicate maybe you should try saying >>> it in lojban next time ;) >>> >> >> Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly: >> >> A =3D "lojban is fully defined." >> B =3D "lojban is complete." >> C =3D "lojban is a functioning language." >> >> "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" can b= e >> written as: >> > > .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau je mulno je tolpo'u bangu > jboski parse > > >> =C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C) >> >> which is equivalent to: >> >> =C2=ACA =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACB =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACC >> >> which is: >> >> "lojban is not fully defined, or lojban is not complete, or lojban is no= t >> a functioning language." >> > > .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau gi'a na mulno gi'a na tolpo'u bangu > jboski parse > > Like I said, we tend to think Lojbanically about logic. Notice how the tw= o > sentences, translated into Lojban, mean entirely different things. There's no "lojbanic" thinking about logic - there's logic and not logic. I= f the two sentences parse differently you've either mistranslated them or lojban is not logical. Yeah, I'll presume the former. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636427058c8d067049923d1b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6 January 2011 02:42, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:25 PM= , Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6 January 2011 01:40, Luke Bergen <= lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
actually I read it the same way.

Esperanto is X, Y, and = Z. =C2=A0lojban is far from being [that] at the moment.
=3D
=
lojban is far from X, Y, AND Z.
=3D
lojban is far = from X AND lojban is far from Y AND lojban is far from Z.

If that's not what you meant to communicate maybe y= ou should try saying it in lojban next time ;)

Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly:

A =3D "lojban is fully defined."
B =3D "lojban is complet= e."
C =3D "lojban is a functioning language."

&quo= t;lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" ca= n be written as:

.i la.lojban. na mulno smugau je mu= lno je tolpo'u bangu
jboski parse
=C2=A0
=C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C)

which is equivalent to:

=C2= =ACA =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACB =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACC

which is:

"lojb= an is not fully defined, or lojban is not complete, or lojban is not a func= tioning language."

.i la.lojban. na mulno smugau gi'a na mulno gi'a na= tolpo'u bangu
jboski parse

Like I said, we tend to think Lojbanically about logic. Notice how the = two sentences, translated into Lojban, mean entirely different things.
There's no "lojbanic" thinking about logic = - there's logic and not logic. If the two sentences parse differently y= ou've either mistranslated them or lojban is not logical. Yeah, I'l= l presume the former.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--001636427058c8d067049923d1b1--