From lojban+bncCL-Ey5qiChDHxpTpBBoEllZ01Q@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 18:05:10 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PafDu-0000Ge-Er; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:05:10 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf17587186wyb.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iRwTQuZ6Zok9pFfKRjVaIAF8db4nHE+lkBj7Rrf2Bvc=; b=m/IQbQZ3+v3SPnTK+1zqn/7qsn3/4CnAc8g+ZjUQ5YHuZpIr9O+Kznf4XWnYH/wQi9 R0XvYD6xtQ9dsJAAnAsh+72yP4PHS2TueJZ84HGeAeOa7nl10b2OUGHJyTKplsEwjPa/ rWM1qXTMyI2xLugeJDbviKfR9RzzOBGNrEb0s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=zWWO8f9Wn58O9haDyfCmlNvYnMTXGGeAJ4CmPS0dWH5gp7yZLbo8lx8TRcL1mKX/NR 5f063AH7/BN5lAehK8G0/ozdx1EPs5IbkUMFXEz0+Wkf2NabqulfRdNr8jUj5X1bVQLB Wx2ifTtMaVJxulCEoK9efXkmTTE5n40h2M4QY= Received: by 10.216.187.139 with SMTP id y11mr30702wem.20.1294279495136; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.38.211 with SMTP id c19ls4400278wbe.1.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.127.149 with SMTP id g21mr776684wbs.10.1294279493961; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.127.149 with SMTP id g21mr776683wbs.10.1294279493943; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f45.google.com (mail-ww0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p4si1978561weq.4.2011.01.05.18.04.52; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.45; Received: by mail-ww0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 29so17625069wwb.14 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.93.94 with SMTP id u30mr1143758wbm.153.1294279488991; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.39.73 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 18:04:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <7c0687a1-deba-495a-9760-95d1d0649423@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <20110105220532.GN17534@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:04:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language) From: Craig Daniel To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: craigbdaniel@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=craigbdaniel@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 6 January 2011 02:42, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Ivo Doko wrote: >>> >>> On 6 January 2011 01:40, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>> >>>> actually I read it the same way. >>>> Esperanto is X, Y, and Z. =C2=A0lojban is far from being [that] at the >>>> moment. >>>> =3D >>>> lojban is far from X, Y, AND Z. >>>> =3D >>>> lojban is far from X AND lojban is far from Y AND lojban is far from Z= . >>>> If that's not what you meant to communicate maybe you should try sayin= g >>>> it in lojban next time ;) >>> >>> Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly: >>> >>> A =3D "lojban is fully defined." >>> B =3D "lojban is complete." >>> C =3D "lojban is a functioning language." >>> >>> "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" can = be >>> written as: >> >> .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau je mulno je tolpo'u bangu >> jboski parse >> >>> >>> =C2=AC(A =E2=88=A7 B =E2=88=A7 C) >>> >>> which is equivalent to: >>> >>> =C2=ACA =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACB =E2=88=A8 =C2=ACC >>> >>> which is: >>> >>> "lojban is not fully defined, or lojban is not complete, or lojban is n= ot >>> a functioning language." >> >> .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau gi'a na mulno gi'a na tolpo'u bangu >> jboski parse >> >> Like I said, we tend to think Lojbanically about logic. Notice how the t= wo >> sentences, translated into Lojban, mean entirely different things. > > There's no "lojbanic" thinking about logic - there's logic and not logic.= If > the two sentences parse differently you've either mistranslated them or > lojban is not logical. Yeah, I'll presume the former. Or (as in .a/vel) *English* is not logical, and while a logician's OR means one thing, the pragmatics of English are such that we often use "or" in a very different way that does not logically mean the same, making some sentences ambiguous. Their translations into Lojban are unambiguous, and thus differ from one reading of the English to another; in this context, there is nothing surprising about some people reading the (non-logical) English one way and some reading it the other. - mi'e .kreig. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.