From lojban+bncCPHigLwJEKnslOkEGgQLk__z@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 19:25:46 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PagTs-00007O-3r; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:25:46 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf15054773gwj.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:25:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=uB2RTdHL8xSbkbKuUigqw+g9XSVZmxi1gd3H/4eLaBU=; b=b7/kvOVjUka6oOp6ArdEiXTICs1HkxSM6VQG973/YLdLzG8DP+w4JRBy30/lDMdp9d O6EiV4pzUsv1QqdhP6LBCYsbCSdNCA08GNrHfgEIiC/u8BTftWB2HLeA3Q5h+sfuaUKv wdrMgWmYfmDvUzBnO5bkTNgr4REkdy0vlf50M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=dDLLNrLJKdYdBlCdlLK3m7K11mpzRTsLPFmKCU85Onxm/eK9h2x6Mk5yj7lhiuO/jx kWMX4ylKaBM6tCkUbITKyc0F/XL55BH05F74ZSEqE+LPMs224k4/hvtpdVSGDdrcSk2H WvS9DLA6Z9sjl12F1pv2PC7e0FPFfYgFkUMlY= Received: by 10.151.69.24 with SMTP id w24mr1664411ybk.60.1294284329617; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.17.13 with SMTP id u13ls9177008ybi.1.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.114.1 with SMTP id r1mr3065577ybm.49.1294284329094; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr8887173ibb.1.1294272354372; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr8887172ibb.1.1294272354337; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f179.google.com (mail-iw0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j25si5292164ibb.0.2011.01.05.16.05.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of xaujbes.cindustus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by iwn42 with SMTP id 42so18126629iwn.24 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:05:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.206.80 with SMTP id ft16mr7601123ibb.110.1294272352867; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.154.81 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:05:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9114501.161.1294150198377.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqhy19> <20110105165231.GK17534@digitalkingdom.org> <201101051658.16043.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:05:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! From: xaujbes cindustus To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: xaujbes.cindustus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of xaujbes.cindustus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=xaujbes.cindustus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba53a6a2d5d56004992243be --90e6ba53a6a2d5d56004992243be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Your point is well taken that languages drift, particularly if used by the workers, peasants and soldiers. Even so, the scope for drift in >grammar and syntax is limited because the grammar is so well defined. I would expect to see more drift in phoneme sounds and in >the usage of words, just as we see in natural languages such as English. That depends highly on what length of period we are talking about. Given enough time, drift in grammar and syntax will occur, gradually more and more, with phonemes and the usage of words being a major reason for this. I= f two or more words begin sounding more like each other, the grammar and syntax will change to reduce ambiguity, and so forth. Also I would dispute that 'workers, peasants, and soldiers' are more likely to be the groups in which language change occurs. RP in England only really formulated in the second half of the 19th century, and is beginning to disappear, and it's closely associated with the upper classes, 'public schools' and the media. It's possible to follow changes in upper class dialects fairly closely over the past few hundred years just because their speech is more likely to be recorded and discussed and it does in fact change like any other dialect= . Sorry if this sounds snippish. 2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Jim Carter wrote: > > > > I haven't been doing too much lately with Lojban, but back in the Logla= n > > days I translated about 10,000 words of text into Loglan while creating > only > > four new brivla (torus, to use in "bagel"; noodle; bear (the animal, > > which wasn't in old Loglan); and oar). All the rest could be represent= ed > > by lujvo, if I looked carefully in the word list. > > In the "lo nu binxo" translation (26.565 words) the only brivla I used > were gismu, no lujvo and no fu'ivla. I did it sort of as an > experiment, so see if it could be done, and I was quite pleased with > the result. > > (Actually, I did use one lujvo and one fu'ivla, anyone interested in > knowing which ones will have to read the translation :) > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dlo+nu+binxo > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --90e6ba53a6a2d5d56004992243be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Your point is well taken that languages drift, particularly if use= d by the workers, peasants and soldiers.=A0 Even so, the scope for drift in= >grammar and syntax is limited because the grammar is so well defined.= =A0 I would expect to see more drift in phoneme sounds and in >the usage= of words, just as we see in natural languages such as English.
That depends highly on what length of period we are talking about. Giv= en enough time, drift in grammar and syntax will occur, gradually more and = more, with phonemes and the usage of words being a major reason for this. I= f two or more words begin sounding more like each other, the grammar and sy= ntax will change to reduce ambiguity, and so forth. Also I would dispute th= at 'workers, peasants, and soldiers' are more likely to be the grou= ps in which language change occurs.=A0RP in England only really formulated = in the second half of the 19th century, and is beginning to disappear, and = it's closely associated with the upper classes, 'public schools'= ; and the media. It's possible to follow changes in upper class dialect= s fairly closely over the past few hundred years just because their speech = is more likely to be=A0recorded and discussed and it does in fact change li= ke any other dialect.
=A0
Sorry if this sounds snippish.
2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Jim Carter <jimc@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
&g= t; I haven't been doing too much lately with Lojban, but back in the Lo= glan
> days I translated about 10,000 words of text into Loglan while creatin= g only
> four new brivla (torus, to use in "bagel"; noodle;= bear (the animal,
> which wasn't in old Loglan); and oar). =A0Al= l the rest could be represented
> by lujvo, if I looked carefully in the word list.

In the = "lo nu binxo" translation (26.565 words) the only brivla I usedwere gismu, no lujvo and no fu'ivla. I did it sort of as an
experi= ment, so see if it could be done, and I was quite pleased with
the result.

(Actually, I did use one lujvo and one fu'ivla, anyo= ne interested in
knowing which ones will have to read the translation :)=

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dlo= +nu+binxo

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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