From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDD3cbqBBoEJNazcQ@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 13:00:06 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmufH-0000J3-UP; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:00:05 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf4208507yia.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:organization :user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PVGzAxeoJ3tYfctoAcj9KTH2+lH6/i+zZfPN62oO+7s=; b=eNdvi4csHNgwUrrZNFq/afekDxCfYpHD8WQK7RLgJys3nMcqrruGNO6Ac+ePJ6vaG8 IoIZYjFnPR81fZsyb+RB4bg8chAX8iLyvFLrtSDiyAQAKAHr6KC7NkEeHLRCHb59hWr8 DtFRmcKmTfOuA5eGeeFrxzbYwHwtpkeqyJHQY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:x-accept-language :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TO58bSlGbwEuo0b8aJcTGpW64vNDaT6+QNmkXZvwYs0NqYD9dD/+rOZaGMFEB0u+KU 9dKBGEd1nOSpdA3HGTa5lgMcs/zKEnBVhptmfDLIHG4T1CoWwzy3JqGxdrbaM/wFkhq4 KDlLs01tv0T8f6bXd1PNfGfN6yTO9MAXg6238= Received: by 10.100.248.10 with SMTP id v10mr659272anh.28.1297198787712; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.239.3 with SMTP id m3ls1358140anh.0.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.154.11 with SMTP id b11mr5025799ane.10.1297198786508; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.154.11 with SMTP id b11mr5025798ane.10.1297198786486; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from eastrmfepo101.cox.net (eastrmfepo101.cox.net [68.230.241.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c18si2385238anc.6.2011.02.08.12.59.45; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.241.213 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.241.213; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmfepo101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.04.00 201-2260-137-20101110) with ESMTP id <20110208205944.JGVG3854.eastrmfepo101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:59:44 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.237.100]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 5Yze1g00H2AfMYu02YzeFQ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:59:44 -0500 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=WzErETEr9UmmzSfn9hiIJEfHov93XHkqPRwCulgbqbI= c=1 sm=1 a=OXxnStFwwgAA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=MQZuvjT3xUZLKv0gclfWMg==:17 a=NEAV23lmAAAA:8 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=od84Ayyf_fEZq4CVwUgA:9 a=mmK4O4mnLH9z_9gBYyUA:7 a=59KV_H77tEQg0WoZOQfhY5-c3SIA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=MQZuvjT3xUZLKv0gclfWMg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4D51AF31.8030706@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:01:37 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.241.213 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitates > that {da brode}. Am I wrong? Yes. The meaning of tanru (as opposed to their formal structure) is a semantics question, and it was explicitly decided that we would NOT get into prescribing rules for semantics. It is NORMALLY the case for standard tanru, modeled after the most common English forms, that a broda brode is also just a brode. But it is not a logical or any other kind of necessity. http://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/ explains that the fundamental basis of tanru meaning is "A type of B", but example 2.8 in that section includes one interpretation "That is a table when it goes (otherwise it is a chair?)." where it would be hard to say that B applies without the modifier A. "fundamental basis" was not intended to be logical entailment, but rather more of a conceptual thing. > Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate > that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the > section? Section 15 is paired with the prior section, on asymmetrical tanru. Assymetrical tanru are ones where a tanru fits "A type of B" and thus comes closer to what you assumed, that, x1 could be said to be B, omitting the modifier. But even there, a "rirxe xirma", "river horse" = hippopotamus is not really a horse. Section 15 indicates that most of its examples might be (better) expressible with a logical or non-logical connective between the components. As usage has developed, probably such a connective would be used by a Lojbanist, but that isn't part of the language prescription. This is probably more significant when tanru are made into lujvo, where a brodybrode is not necessarily a brode, and connective rafsi are usually omitted. lojbab -- Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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