From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCk-MbqBBoERXRsLw@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 13:57:17 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmvYb-0002CX-I8; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:57:17 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf4253696ywh.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:57:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UTwMZtddyXjg0J2xx/tMf6EigWXXE/jgN7HUQqULW9I=; b=gSQUxrJ4bG1Sn7ylDvXHihXMPlS8xnCR2hyFO4iocXZsTZPkN1zQP9uRqn8/rIr4te VnuK5BC/CwdHxF61gSoBLZqtOnF+F5xjPknyUy5/D3gRH5HPIUO39LSt+8icOL1gu/xx 3pgCr6dRigtqpnn0h3qbqr+QDa4M2cQr4tUGo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hP3Oonp2PbksHhvKi8g0iqwaRdM5+l/TMRGH+DdjIrc+NKOVEHNRBcL8zmD4i31nzS eWztohbQo06KGRpoHR3zPaO1arTJseKDO3VtQj8V2fHj/7aIV7aj+l3zp6vE5SBKj9a8 h4gIwSQejBR2h0tr7apHp547DJBRszHjvUCuc= Received: by 10.236.103.178 with SMTP id f38mr354331yhg.10.1297202212880; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls4798101ibk.3.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.75 with SMTP id o11mr1534657ibd.14.1297202212180; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.75 with SMTP id o11mr1534654ibd.14.1297202212129; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f175.google.com (mail-iy0-f175.google.com [209.85.210.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jo1si832699icb.1.2011.02.08.13.56.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.175; Received: by mail-iy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 8so3720241iyj.6 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.229.196 with SMTP id jj4mr1105822icb.145.1297202210936; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.202 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:56:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:56:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3054a063fc1861049bcc6c5c --20cf3054a063fc1861049bcc6c5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Almost all the ones not in the first set. The idea that you could use {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I got my logical connectives wrong, in English: "day night" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, but not night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night" This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of tanru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I was under the same impression. But keep in mind, the first word in the > tanru modifies the second word. So by extension, ko'a will have some > attributes of the {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}. > > hmm, that could be better said. If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly kind of > father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and foremost > saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. But we are also saying that ko'a is a > {mamta} kind of {patfu}. So the nature of the tanru will always imply that > x1 has some of the characteristics of each of the words in the selbri. But > the places are ultimately those of the right-most word (unless you do "co" > and such). > > A better example: {ko'a blanu zdani}. Yes, ko'a is a house, but since we > are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just so happens that > {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as well. > > Which examples in particular were throwing you off? > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitates >> that {da brode}. Am I wrong? >> >> Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate >> that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the >> section? >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf3054a063fc1861049bcc6c5c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Almost all the ones not in the first set.

The idea that you could us= e {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, which can be {donri jenai nic= te} (in case I got my logical connectives wrong, in English: "day nigh= t" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, but no= t night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night"= ;

This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of t= anru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned.<= br>
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Berg= en <lukeaberg= en@gmail.com> wrote:
I was under the s= ame impression. =A0But keep in mind, the first word in the tanru modifies t= he second word. =A0So by extension, ko'a will have some attributes of t= he {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}.

hmm, that could be better said. =A0If {lo mamta patfu} is a = motherly kind of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are fi= rst and foremost saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. =A0But we are also sa= ying that ko'a is a {mamta} kind of {patfu}. =A0So the nature of the ta= nru will always imply that x1 has some of the=A0characteristics=A0of each o= f the words in the selbri. =A0But the places are ultimately those of the ri= ght-most word (unless you do "co" and such).

A better example: =A0{ko'a blanu zdani}. =A0Yes, ko'= a is a house, but since we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdan= i} it just so happens that {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {b= lanu} as well.

Which examples in particular were throwing you off?

On = Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com= > wrote:
=
I was under the impression that {da broda brod= e} logically necessitates that {da brode}.=A0 Am I wrong?

Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate that th= is is not the case.=A0 Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the section?
--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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= =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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