From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCK-8bqBBoEb-4vTQ@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 14:03:08 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmveJ-0005ul-JT; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:03:08 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf4265366yia.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Jvpn9kDgwqnBc66V8toxFPjFcsUNX81drKeflsG3Bjk=; b=OzdBKk7DJ0mB1Fxorg9hcOfBJ+ORVLX8tt7pP9EB1Z7jVfo2CSJPrnCnakf3gDlsc4 708UIj32ZKB/tTu8Qniy67Zgw7mTJpgCD8ITu4iQJ2isQaKRUxsTLjgcqAIGmslk7Ojd bJ7Ud98c+MJEXwOOi97x2mSvbMEUeXlI5E/T0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=6OXf10C6UJu0wh3q+GEbn0Fr4SZhoQ1LlX0yhTAls2rxzWwIpIV0FoBpZeTHf7j782 98XBOkr/miVrhdZsmjATf2qBLTGkfjgziMcx5yw0fFVyf3pr0vLy25Tu8z0d8eZVm5sv wT5wscPKuHP/IRWKcHF9LV2IUf+KmnXBZtiOU= Received: by 10.147.136.17 with SMTP id o17mr31107yan.3.1297202570679; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls10980ibh.0.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.59.65 with SMTP id k1mr2110176ibh.6.1297202569545; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.59.65 with SMTP id k1mr2110175ibh.6.1297202569512; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si1190720ibq.7.2011.02.08.14.02.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by mail-iw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 2so6707638iwn.35 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.10.141 with SMTP id p13mr19627551ibp.131.1297202568078; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:02:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532c7ac45b042049bcc828c --00221532c7ac45b042049bcc828c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yeah that seems funky to me. I think it's not necessarily a good idea to try to turn tanru into logical connectives like ja or jenai. But I agree with you, I would read "donri nicte" as something like "a very day-like night" (perhaps it's very bright due to the moon and you can see clouds?) On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > Almost all the ones not in the first set. > > The idea that you could use {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, > which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I got my logical connectives > wrong, in English: "day night" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, > but not night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night" > > This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of tanru > counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned. > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I was under the same impression. But keep in mind, the first word in the >> tanru modifies the second word. So by extension, ko'a will have some >> attributes of the {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}. >> >> hmm, that could be better said. If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly kind of >> father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and foremost >> saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. But we are also saying that ko'a is a >> {mamta} kind of {patfu}. So the nature of the tanru will always imply that >> x1 has some of the characteristics of each of the words in the selbri. But >> the places are ultimately those of the right-most word (unless you do "co" >> and such). >> >> A better example: {ko'a blanu zdani}. Yes, ko'a is a house, but since we >> are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just so happens that >> {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as well. >> >> Which examples in particular were throwing you off? >> >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >> >>> I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitates >>> that {da brode}. Am I wrong? >>> >>> Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate >>> that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the >>> section? >>> >>> -- >>> Alex R >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221532c7ac45b042049bcc828c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah that seems funky to me. =A0I think it's not necessarily a good ide= a to try to turn tanru into logical connectives like ja or jenai. =A0But I = agree with you, I would read "donri nicte" as something like &quo= t;a very day-like night" (perhaps it's very bright due to the moon= and you can see clouds?)

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozensh= teyn <rpglover= 64@gmail.com> wrote:
Almost all the ones not in the first set.

The idea that you could us= e {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, which can be {donri jenai nic= te} (in case I got my logical connectives wrong, in English: "day nigh= t" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, but no= t night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night"= ;

This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of t= anru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned.<= div>


On Tue,= Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I was under the same im= pression. =A0But keep in mind, the first word in the tanru modifies the sec= ond word. =A0So by extension, ko'a will have some attributes of the {br= oda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}.

hmm, that could be better said. =A0If {lo mamta patfu} is a = motherly kind of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are fi= rst and foremost saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. =A0But we are also sa= ying that ko'a is a {mamta} kind of {patfu}. =A0So the nature of the ta= nru will always imply that x1 has some of the=A0characteristics=A0of each o= f the words in the selbri. =A0But the places are ultimately those of the ri= ght-most word (unless you do "co" and such).

A better example: =A0{ko'a blanu zdani}. =A0Yes, ko'= a is a house, but since we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdan= i} it just so happens that {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {b= lanu} as well.

Which examples in particular were throwing you off?

On Tue, Feb 8, 2= 011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> w= rote:
<= /div>
I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necess= itates that {da brode}.=A0 Am I wrong?

Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate that th= is is not the case.=A0 Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the section?
--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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= =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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