From lojban+bncCNXflom_FxCVgcfqBBoEemqP7w@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 14:37:13 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmwBG-0000NT-LN; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:37:13 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf4280947yxn.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:37:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VTJSW3N0zVhSUq/E1ludR09Owoc1ASG1C0c5HHP4e4Q=; b=YTY6JZEjHo6H6p+Kc6oG3+dY7T9000EA97RRWOj3/2pfAxlkRY6X/C0BU4DFKDG6K2 WlWQIMnpy/AfeSNAxzVdY/28rbhrEKa3WmCAtVXlp64o2kQLYOFH6KmAW5kCqiXxChWX degPsqG9c1evkR90pvWptzWIKBt99bN4rXZPI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=I59+nbpqgF0DGdmZkXFm+UDEc8F4EFKzsxP9FMMPcexZOzIc7QQkGuDd/i/ioveIiL p3MLDR2nLEzWsvtdEDN9K4HD+S7qN08+mF1S5WYs1si9nKzrE1OMK1PrxGZ8CiGdMare 57fP8t7Wk7r3qP9gngMhJVH5nMDES7GwUlDLM= Received: by 10.236.103.5 with SMTP id e5mr1458486yhg.25.1297203349938; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.56.38 with SMTP id e38ls2420ana.3.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.14.10 with SMTP id 10mr4689619ann.55.1297203348945; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.14.10 with SMTP id 10mr4689618ann.55.1297203348913; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f173.google.com (mail-gy0-f173.google.com [209.85.160.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i10si2405028anh.8.2011.02.08.14.15.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.173; Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so2791803gye.4 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.92.2 with SMTP id p2mr672695ybb.76.1297203347570; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.147.113.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 14:15:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:15:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? From: maikxlx To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: maikxlx@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=maikxlx@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd47cd6bbc1a3049bccb099 --000e0cd47cd6bbc1a3049bccb099 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Surely "donri nicte" would refer to the twilight of dusk or dawn, would it not? Just as "pelxu crino" would mean "yellowish green". On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Yeah that seems funky to me. I think it's not necessarily a good idea to > try to turn tanru into logical connectives like ja or jenai. But I agree > with you, I would read "donri nicte" as something like "a very day-like > night" (perhaps it's very bright due to the moon and you can see clouds?) > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> Almost all the ones not in the first set. >> >> The idea that you could use {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, >> which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I got my logical connectives >> wrong, in English: "day night" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, >> but not night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night" >> >> This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of >> tanru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned. >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> I was under the same impression. But keep in mind, the first word in the >>> tanru modifies the second word. So by extension, ko'a will have some >>> attributes of the {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}. >>> >>> hmm, that could be better said. If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly kind >>> of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and foremost >>> saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. But we are also saying that ko'a is a >>> {mamta} kind of {patfu}. So the nature of the tanru will always imply that >>> x1 has some of the characteristics of each of the words in the selbri. But >>> the places are ultimately those of the right-most word (unless you do "co" >>> and such). >>> >>> A better example: {ko'a blanu zdani}. Yes, ko'a is a house, but since >>> we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just so happens that >>> {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as well. >>> >>> Which examples in particular were throwing you off? >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn >> > wrote: >>> >>>> I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically >>>> necessitates that {da brode}. Am I wrong? >>>> >>>> Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to >>>> indicate that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of >>>> the section? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alex R >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd47cd6bbc1a3049bccb099 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Surely "donri nicte" would refer to the twilight of dusk or = dawn, would it not?=A0 Just as "pelxu crino" would mean "yel= lowish green".
=A0
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Yeah that seems funky to me. =A0= I think it's not necessarily a good idea to try to turn tanru into logi= cal connectives like ja or jenai. =A0But I agree with you, I would read &qu= ot;donri nicte" as something like "a very day-like night" (p= erhaps it's very bright due to the moon and you can see clouds?)=20


On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn= <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Almost all the ones not in the f= irst set.

The idea that you could use {donri nicte} to refer to {don= ri ja nicte}, which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I got my logical co= nnectives wrong, in English: "day night" to refer to "day or= night" which can be "day, but not night") seems contrary to= the idea of "a day type of night"

This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of t= anru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned.= =20


On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I was under the same= impression. =A0But keep in mind, the first word in the tanru modifies the = second word. =A0So by extension, ko'a will have some attributes of the = {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}.=20

hmm, that could be better said. =A0If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly k= ind of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and fo= remost saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. =A0But we are also saying that = ko'a is a {mamta} kind of {patfu}. =A0So the nature of the tanru will a= lways imply that x1 has some of the=A0characteristics=A0of each of the word= s in the selbri. =A0But the places are ultimately those of the right-most w= ord (unless you do "co" and such).

A better example: =A0{ko'a blanu zdani}. =A0Yes, ko'a is a hou= se, but since we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just= so happens that {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as w= ell.

Which examples in particular were throwing you off?

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <= ;rpglover64@gmail= .com> wrote:
I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitate= s that {da brode}.=A0 Am I wrong?

Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/c= ll/5/15/ seem to indicate that this is not the case.=A0 Am I misunderst= anding the purpose of the section?

--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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