From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhC1jcfqBBoE2gLC9Q@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 14:42:15 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmwG9-0007AW-Q9; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:42:15 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf4266610gwb.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:42:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nDCZmtbgxleXLfDaAIKLyV2Rc4Fs8R9411+bBfZh2xk=; b=FZgw8FJcffJbd3WY05fygDb+1IVe6nSD6a//TtvEyrXiLc92jRNOh7tx6OpfXH6IV6 8ZlcU2qXsl/8fhujdG/HdloTHUnPKL7369RTCzD7EuwBBKF+mQWgH94pXADkong83iR0 VJQpt5QqdviulMH3YoKKzM99sqCPkZtMsEgYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=qrVQOKyJegnafYXG4cSXW0sd9bl3tkFpiQYuq5GivBc4Y2smcOJ2UugZ1jIGEm4fS2 6u6jIC9FfPe9BJyEP+wsV2GtrmfJbm7rVpK2Yo65lo8C7T1munddK65c8av0FDJYaK/n 9ApWWqjRQL4R6mFl8cENjnP070+7ge4n+XjsA= Received: by 10.236.105.238 with SMTP id k74mr354639yhg.2.1297204917049; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.29.16 with SMTP id c16ls6036anc.5.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.252.4 with SMTP id z4mr4718311anh.44.1297204916357; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.252.4 with SMTP id z4mr4718310anh.44.1297204916309; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c30si2412897anc.9.2011.02.08.14.41.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.171; Received: by yxd30 with SMTP id 30so2496208yxd.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.17.11 with SMTP id u11mr8930851ani.186.1297204913290; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.137.13 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 14:41:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:41:53 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504501706a0ebd9f049bcd0ec4 --00504501706a0ebd9f049bcd0ec4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Without context it could refer to many things. Night which looks like day (ala white nights at extreme latitudes) is the one that seems most obvious to me. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:15 PM, maikxlx wrote: > Surely "donri nicte" would refer to the twilight of dusk or dawn, would it > not? Just as "pelxu crino" would mean "yellowish green". > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> Yeah that seems funky to me. I think it's not necessarily a good idea to >> try to turn tanru into logical connectives like ja or jenai. But I agree >> with you, I would read "donri nicte" as something like "a very day-like >> night" (perhaps it's very bright due to the moon and you can see clouds?) >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >> >>> Almost all the ones not in the first set. >>> >>> The idea that you could use {donri nicte} to refer to {donri ja nicte}, >>> which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I got my logical connectives >>> wrong, in English: "day night" to refer to "day or night" which can be "day, >>> but not night") seems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night" >>> >>> This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of >>> tanru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>>> I was under the same impression. But keep in mind, the first word in >>>> the tanru modifies the second word. So by extension, ko'a will have some >>>> attributes of the {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}. >>>> >>>> hmm, that could be better said. If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly kind >>>> of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and foremost >>>> saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. But we are also saying that ko'a is a >>>> {mamta} kind of {patfu}. So the nature of the tanru will always imply that >>>> x1 has some of the characteristics of each of the words in the selbri. But >>>> the places are ultimately those of the right-most word (unless you do "co" >>>> and such). >>>> >>>> A better example: {ko'a blanu zdani}. Yes, ko'a is a house, but since >>>> we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just so happens that >>>> {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as well. >>>> >>>> Which examples in particular were throwing you off? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn < >>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically >>>>> necessitates that {da brode}. Am I wrong? >>>>> >>>>> Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to >>>>> indicate that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of >>>>> the section? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Alex R >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alex R >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00504501706a0ebd9f049bcd0ec4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Without context it could refer to many things.=A0 Night which looks like da= y (ala white nights at extreme latitudes) is the one that seems most obviou= s to me.

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:15 PM, = maikxlx <maikxlx@= gmail.com> wrote:
Surely "= ;donri nicte" would refer to the twilight of dusk or dawn, would it no= t?=A0 Just as "pelxu crino" would mean "yellowish green"= ;.
=A0
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah that seems f= unky to me. =A0I think it's not necessarily a good idea to try to turn = tanru into logical connectives like ja or jenai. =A0But I agree with you, I= would read "donri nicte" as something like "a very day-like= night" (perhaps it's very bright due to the moon and you can see = clouds?)=20


On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn= <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Almost all the on= es not in the first set.

The idea that you could use {donri nicte} t= o refer to {donri ja nicte}, which can be {donri jenai nicte} (in case I go= t my logical connectives wrong, in English: "day night" to refer = to "day or night" which can be "day, but not night") se= ems contrary to the idea of "a day type of night"

This list makes perfect sense if its purpose were to give examples of t= anru counterparts in other languages, but I didn't see that mentioned.= =20


On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I was under the s= ame impression. =A0But keep in mind, the first word in the tanru modifies t= he second word. =A0So by extension, ko'a will have some attributes of t= he {broda} since {brode} is a {broda} type-of {brode}.=20

hmm, that could be better said. =A0If {lo mamta patfu} is a motherly k= ind of father, then in the bridi {ko'a mamta patfu} we are first and fo= remost saying that {ko'a} is a {patfu}. =A0But we are also saying that = ko'a is a {mamta} kind of {patfu}. =A0So the nature of the tanru will a= lways imply that x1 has some of the=A0characteristics=A0of each of the word= s in the selbri. =A0But the places are ultimately those of the right-most w= ord (unless you do "co" and such).

A better example: =A0{ko'a blanu zdani}. =A0Yes, ko'a is a hou= se, but since we are saying that it's a {blanu} type-of {zdani} it just= so happens that {ko'a} could very well fill out the x1 of {blanu} as w= ell.

Which examples in particular were throwing you off?

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <= ;rpglover64@gmail= .com> wrote:
I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitate= s that {da brode}.=A0 Am I wrong?

Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/c= ll/5/15/ seem to indicate that this is not the case.=A0 Am I misunderst= anding the purpose of the section?

--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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