From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRDJxsfqBBoEAnxu7g@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 08 16:44:11 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmyAA-0005Kt-NH; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:44:11 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf3235031fxm.16 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:44:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3jdWQc+MJX7UE45VFvwEQ8piOxNPeqeq8y0bsRs+CJg=; b=5PeFMX/zUUn92zCRlFbKo7U+eB9qBU5Ny9fIwIKvC2K7kqjO/jregemvklfDkkmcBG 1slsyk+QpaOb4TcV6ItjwxsFB0x7WgDeh5RKX2BBVSvMhvLprBWHv4wDpPpJ9oVF8DEg CgJzbIpbiWlsIFq5wV9fNUm86eERBYHUJYK8A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uXWmInvDLXB7fl8aZnqqobpJQMydMA6Wmrir7RPm6sAkx2R22+2jwv/xXcGOhrowwV T+ZcdK6gZo+EcEFuf/KddOxVNt3mGMz3I8Pv6ZcarTqQJNqqCBK5/xuSpGfuVh4PMuMH 36WQoBUQswnuBc8rXopcfkbVp2u5/Iv6DSeX0= Received: by 10.223.81.79 with SMTP id w15mr1667849fak.7.1297212233879; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.56.80 with SMTP id x16ls55115fag.0.p; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.83.14 with SMTP id d14mr1988581fal.6.1297212232880; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.83.14 with SMTP id d14mr1988580fal.6.1297212232849; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f48.google.com (mail-fx0-f48.google.com [209.85.161.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r7si6666fax.5.2011.02.08.16.43.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.48; Received: by mail-fx0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 2so7094784fxm.21 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.114.14 with SMTP id c14mr2098517faq.103.1297212231596; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:43:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.85.205 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:43:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D51AF31.8030706@lojban.org> References: <4D51AF31.8030706@lojban.org> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:43:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c598db433d2f049bcec2b5 --001636c598db433d2f049bcec2b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> I was under the impression that {da broda brode} logically necessitates >> that {da brode}. Am I wrong? >> > > Yes. > > The meaning of tanru (as opposed to their formal structure) is a semantics > question, and it was explicitly decided that we would NOT get into > prescribing rules for semantics. > > It is NORMALLY the case for standard tanru, modeled after the most common > English forms, that a broda brode is also just a brode. But it is not a > logical or any other kind of necessity. > > http://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/ > > explains that the fundamental basis of tanru meaning is "A type of B", but > example 2.8 in that section includes one interpretation > "That is a table when it goes (otherwise it is a chair?)." > where it would be hard to say that B applies without the modifier A. > "fundamental basis" was not intended to be logical entailment, but rather > more of a conceptual thing. > > > Some of the examples in http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate >> that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the >> section? >> > > Section 15 is paired with the prior section, on asymmetrical tanru. > Assymetrical tanru are ones where a tanru fits "A type of B" and thus comes > closer to what you assumed, that, x1 could be said to be B, omitting the > modifier. But even there, a "rirxe xirma", "river horse" = hippopotamus is > not really a horse. > Is a hippopotamus even a {rirxe xirma}? I know the etymology of the English (et al.) suggests 'river horse', but is that carried over to Lojban? I would expect a more literal interpretation of the tanru, namely 'a river type of horse'. Since hippopotamuses aren't horses (or xirma), they aren't rirxe xirma either. stevo > > Section 15 indicates that most of its examples might be (better) > expressible with a logical or non-logical connective between the components. > As usage has developed, probably such a connective would be used by a > Lojbanist, but that isn't part of the language prescription. This is > probably more significant when tanru are made into lujvo, where a brodybrode > is not necessarily a brode, and connective rafsi are usually omitted. > > lojbab > -- > Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org > President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c598db433d2f049bcec2b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Bob LeChevalier,= President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
I was under the impression that = {da broda brode} logically necessitates that {da brode}. =A0Am I wrong?
=

Yes.

The meaning of tanru (as opposed to their formal stru= cture) is a semantics question, and it was explicitly decided that we would= NOT get into prescribing rules for semantics.

It is NORMALLY the ca= se for standard tanru, modeled after the most common English forms, that a = broda brode is also just a brode. =A0But it is not a logical or any other k= ind of necessity.

http://dag= .github.com/cll/5/2/

explains that the fundamental basis of tanr= u meaning is "A type of B", but example 2.8 in that section inclu= des one interpretation
"That is a table when it goes (otherwise it is a chair?)."
whe= re it would be hard to say that B applies without the modifier A.
"= fundamental basis" was not intended to be logical entailment, but rath= er more of a conceptual thing.=20


Some of the examples in http://dag.github.co= m/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate that this is not the case. =A0Am I misunde= rstanding the purpose of the section?

Section 15 is paired with the prior section, on asym= metrical tanru. Assymetrical tanru are ones where a tanru fits "A type= of B" and thus comes closer to what you assumed, that, x1 could be sa= id to be B, omitting the modifier. =A0But even there, a "rirxe xirma&q= uot;, "river horse" =3D hippopotamus is not really a horse.
=A0
Is a hippopotamus even a {rirxe xirma}? I know the etymology of the En= glish (et al.) suggests 'river horse', but is that carried over to = Lojban? I would expect a more literal interpretation of the tanru, namely &= #39;a river type of horse'. Since hippopotamuses aren't horses (or = xirma), they aren't rirxe xirma either.
=A0
stevo

Section 15 indicates that mo= st of its examples might be (better) expressible with a logical or non-logi= cal connective between the components. =A0As usage has developed, probably = such a connective would be used by a Lojbanist, but that isn't part of = the language prescription. =A0This is probably more significant when tanru = are made into lujvo, where a brodybrode is not necessarily a brode, and con= nective rafsi are usually omitted.

lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0lojbab@lojban.org =A0 = =A0www.lojban.org<= br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.=20


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