And imaginary tables aren't tables (or anything else)(pace xor= xes) But generally, getting away from the principle that a broda brod= e is a brode makes more trouble than it is worth (I take it that the expres= sion for hippopotamus -- if Lojban actually uses it [when would it?] -- is = a compound that has just not been reduced and compounds can go anywhere.&nb= sp; It is important to notice, however, that broda brodes need not be broda= (one of the nice things about Loglan that got lost was to make this explic= it for an array of adjectives).

From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= b>Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011= 6:43:31 PM
Subject: Re= : [lojban] Am I completely wrong about tanru?

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Bob LeChevalier,= President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:

I was under the i= mpression that {da broda brode} logically necessitates that {da brode}. &nb= sp;Am I wrong?

Yes.

The meaning of tanru (as opposed to their formal stru= cture) is a semantics question, and it was explicitly decided that we would= NOT get into prescribing rules for semantics.

It is NORMALLY the ca= se for standard tanru, modeled after the most common English forms, that a = broda brode is also just a brode. But it is not a logical or any othe= r kind of necessity.

http= ://dag.github.com/cll/5/2/

explains that the fundamental = basis of tanru meaning is "A type of B", but example 2.8 in that section in= cludes one interpretation
"That is a table when it goes (otherwise it is a chair?)."
where it woul= d be hard to say that B applies without the modifier A.
"fundamental bas= is" was not intended to be logical entailment, but rather more of a concept= ual thing.=20

Some of the= examples in = http://dag.github.com/cll/5/15/ seem to indicate that this is not the c= ase. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the section?

Section 15 is paired with the prior section, on asym= metrical tanru. Assymetrical tanru are ones where a tanru fits "A type of B= " and thus comes closer to what you assumed, that, x1 could be said to be B= , omitting the modifier. But even there, a "rirxe xirma", "river hors= e" =3D hippopotamus is not really a horse.

Is a hippopotamus even a {rirxe xirma}? I know the etymology of the En= glish (et al.) suggests 'river horse', but is that carried over to Lojban? = I would expect a more literal interpretation of the tanru, namely 'a river = type of horse'. Since hippopotamuses aren't horses (or xirma), they aren't = rirxe xirma either.

stevo

Section 15 in= dicates that most of its examples might be (better) expressible with a logi= cal or non-logical connective between the components. As usage has de= veloped, probably such a connective would be used by a Lojbanist, but that = isn't part of the language prescription. This is probably more signif= icant when tanru are made into lujvo, where a brodybrode is not necessarily= a brode, and connective rafsi are usually omitted.

lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier <= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank" h= ref=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.= org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.= =20

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