From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDJpaPqBBoElrL1ig@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 01 19:43:21 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PkTcj-0005Jo-1f; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:21 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf4865237yxn.16 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4hvYbJ2g6ZwrqSklQ9iDl3sv2lAEaTC7PIJNiRymxbw=; b=ZQsM1LGW/lm5VvS1rfPjHuVAruYPdcovox4S3DhllIjZgLbezlKKpzV90wWNvdYUKU MlCOBi5GEUfkgFaiITUN6I0hejvnLpkalWUzb1VpFa9tvIN+E/LYaGQAxTjoUgNJeIpb uJjorhhrE/e92x3SzlMvu2WAm7qgB6ev5l4Dc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QgA3tRjHqb2UCcjej9d+NSFAuhyOnseXR/R/+Lba9sLEaJl0FqdaChcV66yHZmNecC ZZkoPRKrYhyrD3VIc4dz8SHkOw456i7DCURFqmEo9FOzE2rfCOQn8pLOav2ymHNpc+d6 SpF3GHR06FoRq3vPm4sQzqCg+HawedOOcEqfI= Received: by 10.100.143.9 with SMTP id q9mr309568and.64.1296618185031; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.29.16 with SMTP id c16ls44801anc.5.p; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.42.8 with SMTP id p8mr1088113anp.48.1296618184385; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.42.8 with SMTP id p8mr1088111anp.48.1296618184368; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 28si8217930anv.0.2011.02.01.19.43.03; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 98985 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Feb 2011 03:43:02 -0000 Message-ID: <871962.98840.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 7LePBCkVM1mIfq68cdanzt8eFYnDQTWZJWCSWyRzGm2ZDPA 8YVixKvXVh84VyLl3e9JUp1VO5fUqcNTLHDu5Yiz04uX9i7RBqD5x8yGGGx9 FMW7ZAwDXE3lDBoZNY7nBVwbxFhLIsN0Jy5yOXYqDKoIjJSBwBRaT6rRXCfh urBE2Nyqj5qENG0jAW0uTlz4Gtwo8JxQbftyHOP6gLgG9oa5bQj0DkxNDilr 4_OgevAkjyYFelbQJkFj0GHHB_ZNUYM1XkTm.0vKO1E9zHUPDBn24uC1QQVy UnK1p18K81wneV.4hXYFrVmIY9RJD.qGI9veRPJ6UnHXtyTaUQGrlKGsH7ve S1dWmE_4- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 19:43:02 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:43:02 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Idea: Levels To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On grammatical grasp. there are two old criteria. 1. Grasp of simple sent= ence=20 structure - can they get all the pieces in place in a simple sentence. 2. = how=20 many transformations from underlying (surface) structures (or to) does the = most=20 complex sentence contain. This latter is quantifiable and so proably is th= e=20 first. One might want to add some qualitative matters, since some=20 transformations are inherently more opaque than others and the notion of "s= imple=20 sentence" is probably open to a range of interpretations. ----- Original Message ---- From: Leo Molas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 9:20:30 PM Subject: [lojban] Idea: Levels coirodo I've been thinking for a long time this idea, and I wanted to write it down in order to discuss it (and not to forgive it). What if we stablish some: *Levels* (beginner, intermediate, expert...) I know, it's really obvious this was discussed before, but I think I have something larger in mind. (this is the obvious part) A level shall be a series of contents, or concepts of lojban grammar, along with a quantity of minimum vocabulary. There would be 3 or more levels (the more, the better), in ascending order of difficulty. (this may be not) A level shall be very well defined. With this I mean to enumerate the possible grammar structures that can be in a lojban text readable for a student of the level. The vocabulary for that level should be divided in the existing categories (gismu, cmavo, lujvo...), and establish a subset of those words. For (a toy) example, a beginner should know: - gismu, and the place structure. - how to say his name. And the subset of words: gismu =3D {klama, blanu, zdani} cmavo =3D {mi'e, i, coi} This way, it's easy to say whether a text would be readable for a beginner or not. It would be *so* easy, that a program could do that. So, we could make a program that classifies the entire lojban corpus. (this occurred to me when I was looking for a text to read, so I could practice a little, but I always had a difficult concept (actually, vocabulary is not a problem, since I could search in a dictionary)) The advantages of this: - Having a classified corpus would be beneficial for people writing a textb= ook. - Also for them, the levels should be a good place to start. - Homogenization. If many are attracted by this, and start writing (or modifying) many textbooks, the topics between books could be interchangeable for students. The enumeration of vocabulary for each level should be easy. For each group of words (gismu, cmavo, lujvo...), we could order them by frequency (I think I saw something like that with gismu), and establish limits there. The enumeration of grammar is the tricky one. If you like the idea, we should discuss the number of levels, and the contents of them. I think it could be easy for me, if someday this levels grow up and become usable, to modify some of the existing parsers into a classifier. If I remember something else, I'll post it. In the meantime, I'd like to know what you think about this. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My Lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com/ My personal =B5blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.