From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDzyerqBBoE2cH-sw@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 15 08:09:10 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PpNSc-0002ED-QB; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:09:10 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf208240yxn.16 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:09:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RSlzC7B/okrfk888uSVQOV1YCgcfQId+7GSnuBc3Fzg=; b=qzAVf3aYmZfVCQBa7qQ+XLrCYZ34c6hC00ehVhHEeJ3yTitp1m4Cktd4lrCMUd1OPm F3LMgzcp4NChoSfI1XY8SAOOxEyuD/K8rM1WJiUTs3+Q8OrhOSOXCVxDWr9vioQUaoAV Oaql0G4Y7feC0tsdWD3XhoCxyko5IleJozFYA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=I3VyH2iaKGK0Nvxvgku3b6NC77g5tq8Zmcjagupzy9omV4LngihYdp6p+I/mpOdBMg iXKYMl7JQK/68elmWkPrFNMmk4ytkJASj3GyuJrkiNUGjbdJgTRME6hZiChU+OMhXEFq uw6dWUKYG82OeyxiIHKiOMOIRENRVl7xjd1GY= Received: by 10.101.8.8 with SMTP id l8mr51286ani.48.1297786099768; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls1002717ibi.2.p; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.230.130 with SMTP id jm2mr412918icb.87.1297786098061; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.230.130 with SMTP id jm2mr412917icb.87.1297786098040; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f173.google.com (mail-iy0-f173.google.com [209.85.210.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jo1si597308icb.1.2011.02.15.08.08.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.173; Received: by iye19 with SMTP id 19so232411iye.32 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.241.6 with SMTP id lc6mr6804627icb.480.1297786097463; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.133 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27958100.303.1297752246667.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnp16> References: <27958100.303.1297752246667.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnp16> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:08:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alynpost. ma zvati (Regarding lodockikumazvati) From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf305642575574ad049c545f0a --20cf305642575574ad049c545f0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://whereareyourkeys.org/ is the only other resource I've found about th= e game. If you were referring to this website, then I don't know what else you can do short of finding (in person) someone knows the game; if you were referring to alynpost's website, then this might be the resource you were looking for. AFAI can see, it would be against the spirit of the game (and limiting to its effectiveness) to introduce le until one can explain, in lojban the functional difference between le and lo. {.i ta pe do xu rokci} would probably be better expressed as using {ponse}, since the possession is what is in question. Perhaps {do ponse xu ta poi rokci}, changing the word order from the English to avoid FA and SE. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Lindar wrote: > I would love to learn how to be the person running this game, but the > website gives me very few clues. Could anybody help me figure this thing > out? > > Secondly: > > The Lojban in the Universal Speed Curriculum is wrong. It's just plain > terrible, in fact. > > I don't know exactly where to put a proper translation, so I'll post it > here. > > i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta mo li=92u ca lo xance cusku. be zoi xan. *we= ird > hand symbols here* .xan. > > *correction magic* > > .i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta mo li'u ca lo nu xance cusku zoi xan. *weir= d > symbols* .xan. > > Correct all instances of this type of sentence to be like this. > > Next is: > > i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i lo ta rokci pe do xu li=92u ca lo xance cusku b= e > zoi xan. *weird symbols* .xan > > Unfortunately, this is not a complete utterance: "A rock?". {lo ta rokci} > actually unfolds to {lo rokci pe ta}, which adds further confusion when y= ou > add another {pe}. It doesn't actually make sense in Lojban. > > Should be: > > .i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta pe do xu rokci li'u ca lo nu xance cusku zo= i > xan. *weird symbols* .xan. > > This is asserting that it is, indeed, a rock. However, this whole meaning > is rather strange, because one could also assert that, despite the fact t= hat > it is somebody else's rock, it is also the speaker's rock in a Lojbanic > sense. It's on the table near the speaker, so I would say that, yes, it i= s. > I understand that the goal is to keep the game semantically simple, but > those words don't mean what you want them to mean, so you have to pick a > different meaning or a different word. I think this would be a lovely tim= e > to introduce le/ku. > > Start with {.i mi ponse lo rokci ku .i xu do ponse lo rokci ku .i do na > ponse lo rokci ku .i mi ponse lo rokci ku .i do ponse lo grana ku .i xu d= o > ponse lo grana ku} etc. > > {.i mi je'a ponse lo rokci ku .i je do je'a ponse lo grana ku} finally at > the end, etc. > > Please get back to me about translations. If you can directly e-mail me > chunks of 10 basic phrases to translate, I will translate 10 chunks every > two or three days for you. This sort of basic conversation is very easy f= or > me to translate, but is also very important to get correct the first time= , > so I would be very glad to help you fully translate the curriculum. So, s= end > me some stuff to translate, I'll e-mail you back as soon as I can, then y= ou > send me more once you get those ten. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 Alex R --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf305642575574ad049c545f0a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://whereareyourkeys.org/ i= s the only other resource I've found about the game.=A0 If you were ref= erring to this website, then I don't know what else you can do short of= finding (in person) someone knows the game; if you were referring to alynp= ost's website, then this might be the resource you were looking for.
AFAI can see, it would be against the spirit of the game (and limiting = to its effectiveness) to introduce le until one can explain, in lojban the = functional difference between le and lo.=A0

{.i ta pe do xu rokci} = would probably be better expressed as using {ponse}, since the possession i= s what is in question.=A0 Perhaps {do ponse xu ta poi rokci}, changing the = word order from the English to avoid FA and SE.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Lindar <lindarthebard@= yahoo.com> wrote:
I would love to learn how to be the person running this game, but the = website gives me very few clues. Could anybody help me figure this thing ou= t?

Secondly:

The Lojban in the= Universal Speed Curriculum is wrong. It's just plain terrible, in fact= .

I don't know exactly where to put a proper translation, = so I'll post it here.

i lo tadni ku cusku= lu .i ta mo li=92u ca lo xance cusku.=A0be zoi xan. *weird hand symbols he= re* .xan.

*correction magic*

.i lo= tadni ku cusku lu .i ta mo li'u ca lo nu xance cusku zoi xan. *weird s= ymbols* .xan.

Correct all instances of this type o= f sentence to be like this.

Next is:=A0

i lo tadni ku= cusku lu .i lo ta rokci pe do xu li=92u ca=A0lo xance cusku be zoi xan. *w= eird symbols* .xan

Unfortunately, this is no= t a complete utterance: "A rock?". {lo ta rokci} actually unfolds= to {lo rokci pe ta}, which adds further confusion when you add another {pe= }. It doesn't actually make sense in Lojban.

Should be:

.i lo tadni ku cusk= u lu .i ta pe do xu rokci li'u ca lo nu xance cusku zoi xan. *weird sym= bols* .xan.

This is asserting that it is, indeed, = a rock. However, this whole meaning is rather strange, because one could al= so assert that, despite the fact that it is somebody else's rock, it is= also the speaker's rock in a Lojbanic sense. It's on the table nea= r the speaker, so I would say that, yes, it is. I understand that the goal = is to keep the game semantically simple, but those words don't mean wha= t you want them to mean, so you have to pick a different meaning or a diffe= rent word. I think this would be a lovely time to introduce le/ku.

Start with {.i mi ponse lo rokci ku=A0.i xu do ponse lo= rokci ku .i do na ponse lo rokci ku .i mi ponse lo rokci ku .i do ponse lo= grana ku .i xu do ponse lo grana ku} etc.

{.i mi = je'a ponse lo rokci ku .i je do je'a ponse lo grana ku} finally at = the end, etc.

Please get back to me about translations. If you can di= rectly e-mail me chunks of 10 basic phrases to translate, I will translate = 10 chunks every two or three days for you. This sort of basic conversation = is very easy for me to translate, but is also very important to get correct= the first time, so I would be very glad to help you fully translate the cu= rriculum. So, send me some stuff to translate, I'll e-mail you back as = soon as I can, then you send me more once you get those ten.

--
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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