From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDK0OrqBBoEmL4Gig@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 15 08:22:52 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PpNfr-0001Yg-Ag; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:51 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf213121gwb.16 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0gMQUzfBXfv8HxMmyOY2FZiR/eCYgxCEI/OMB/ar6qM=; b=6WvtCLtLknHRnaYYWgL2vlPWjvpNewEajNYNPSrkMcIKibrztbVnm2MOQ2i4cH8zoT pZJqDGyGoRCz2fknpONyHwHBB9V9wuRfYVaP8qLXEfUOzYdHvRcJMKWEpKjxUkxYbHMw p5aFiIpBE7uBLMMrEdy+nwj/8ocni+k918JoY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=e7GnVzS0oGDcGU+xoo9QB2zxm22U9wXUd++v8dkQ670NQbSYylwOwpGaasEYoSQuiR Iwlk6lGNiLlBFFmJ5cD6EzhE/V4yfuz+33n4tnYxF4/TD1OJ5B61tTLs5cGRLc1NjrU+ nd5SdT4LF15AJl59Zhog5pByH8LBt3nD3JMyE= Received: by 10.101.141.14 with SMTP id t14mr302775ann.24.1297786954980; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.56.38 with SMTP id e38ls1257110ana.3.p; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.192.36 with SMTP id u36mr1743632anp.39.1297786954041; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.192.36 with SMTP id u36mr1743630anp.39.1297786954022; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f48.google.com (mail-yw0-f48.google.com [209.85.213.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d33si1628844and.1.2011.02.15.08.22.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.213.48; Received: by mail-yw0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 21so168873ywc.35 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.180.134 with SMTP id bu6mr6983623icb.76.1297786953712; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (173-10-243-253-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.10.243.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i16sm3723847ibl.6.2011.02.15.08.22.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:22:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:22:28 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alynpost. ma zvati (Regarding lodockikumazvati) Message-ID: <20110215162228.GB12786@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <27958100.303.1297752246667.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnp16> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {pe}, in newer versions of the USC, has been replaced with constructs like {lo do rokci}. I use {me} when I need to express that as a selbri. I find that much clearer than the previous version. It isn't against the spirit of the game to introduce {le} if you can't describe {lo}, but it is against the spirit of the game to introduce them both if you don't have different phrases to use or some other in-language disambiguation. Even if you have to describe that difference in the host language. I've struggled with this for ti, ta, tu, because which one you use is speaker dependent. I've punted on it, but it is essentially like mi/do in requiring the speaker to modify a copycat phrase to get it right. -Alan On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:08:17AM -0500, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > [1]http://whereareyourkeys.org/ is the only other resource I've found > about the game. If you were referring to this website, then I don't kn= ow > what else you can do short of finding (in person) someone knows the ga= me; > if you were referring to alynpost's website, then this might be the > resource you were looking for. >=20 > AFAI can see, it would be against the spirit of the game (and limiting= to > its effectiveness) to introduce le until one can explain, in lojban th= e > functional difference between le and lo. >=20 > {.i ta pe do xu rokci} would probably be better expressed as using > {ponse}, since the possession is what is in question. Perhaps {do pons= e xu > ta poi rokci}, changing the word order from the English to avoid FA an= d > SE. >=20 > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Lindar <[2]lindarthebard@yahoo.com> > wrote: >=20 > I would love to learn how to be the person running this game, but th= e > website gives me very few clues. Could anybody help me figure this t= hing > out? > Secondly: > The Lojban in the Universal Speed Curriculum is wrong. It's just pla= in > terrible, in fact. > I don't know exactly where to put a proper translation, so I'll post= it > here. > i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta mo li=EF=BF=BDu ca lo xance cusku. be z= oi xan. > *weird hand symbols here* .xan. > *correction magic* > .i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta mo li'u ca lo nu xance cusku zoi xan. > *weird symbols* .xan. > Correct all instances of this type of sentence to be like this. > Next is: > i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i lo ta rokci pe do xu li=EF=BF=BDu ca lo xa= nce cusku be > zoi xan. *weird symbols* .xan > Unfortunately, this is not a complete utterance: "A rock?". {lo ta > rokci} actually unfolds to {lo rokci pe ta}, which adds further > confusion when you add another {pe}. It doesn't actually make sense = in > Lojban. > Should be: > .i lo tadni ku cusku lu .i ta pe do xu rokci li'u ca lo nu xance cus= ku > zoi xan. *weird symbols* .xan. > This is asserting that it is, indeed, a rock. However, this whole > meaning is rather strange, because one could also assert that, despi= te > the fact that it is somebody else's rock, it is also the speaker's r= ock > in a Lojbanic sense. It's on the table near the speaker, so I would = say > that, yes, it is. I understand that the goal is to keep the game > semantically simple, but those words don't mean what you want them t= o > mean, so you have to pick a different meaning or a different word. I > think this would be a lovely time to introduce le/ku. > Start with {.i mi ponse lo rokci ku .i xu do ponse lo rokci ku .i do= na > ponse lo rokci ku .i mi ponse lo rokci ku .i do ponse lo grana ku .i= xu > do ponse lo grana ku} etc. > {.i mi je'a ponse lo rokci ku .i je do je'a ponse lo grana ku} final= ly > at the end, etc. > Please get back to me about translations. If you can directly e-mail= me > chunks of 10 basic phrases to translate, I will translate 10 chunks > every two or three days for you. This sort of basic conversation is = very > easy for me to translate, but is also very important to get correct = the > first time, so I would be very glad to help you fully translate the > curriculum. So, send me some stuff to translate, I'll e-mail you bac= k as > soon as I can, then you send me more once you get those ten. >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [3]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [4]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 > -- > Alex R >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 > References >=20 > Visible links > 1. http://whereareyourkeys.org/ > 2. mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com > 3. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 4. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den --=20 .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.