From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDdt5_rBBoECCkesQ@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 25 09:26:01 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pt1QM-0003AT-4a; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:26:00 -0800 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1sf320461pwi.16 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:25:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pEmcWockF2xBVL+R9VfUXSe1OumzAoYE2JP7ZnAd2Kg=; b=DBxg4GqbC2xd5QID2Wg9wCRXPwUAAnXO7D58sT5iQmA0efOh7l5ZG+ePNfB7Kr0qDQ 8Wzh71rQT1Cr2pS+x7wptKqjnlY0OYTAtvMvhtEdiS2m/PpdVt/Pp17HKUUnYdpy9x9I 5ZopN7+jmGHMsw4EJuUKy/4yNTAJMlvyhyrkk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=33kr+PwijKr4bNqJUr84IxYWkz49hnhCrtYE/d+zp4Ecj1Lwt+7DWWGHHZxXk1vPkY 53Lf8Ij/MaGEi9LNYxgFmfTTN15Y4mwCK0FHk3s/ZvwDgrqYdqBH6ov55ImPMa5EW/6Y pYktUucamJMzirWQejRbSR81AwUmBULBJ8xYA= Received: by 10.142.179.4 with SMTP id b4mr154121wff.61.1298652125731; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.201.17 with SMTP id y17ls1519125wff.1.p; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.143.19 with SMTP id q19mr382831wfd.53.1298652124736; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.143.19 with SMTP id q19mr382830wfd.53.1298652124678; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f175.google.com (mail-pv0-f175.google.com [74.125.83.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x35si851670wfd.4.2011.02.25.08.42.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.175; Received: by pvc30 with SMTP id 30so349751pvc.20 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.222.9 with SMTP id u9mr1800806wfg.315.1298652123437; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.53.5 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <12056049.313.1298617316637.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prof15> <00504502d34a992077049d168774@google.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:42:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: -888834847 Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd150fc811bcd049d1e0289 --000e0cd150fc811bcd049d1e0289 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why, though? It's not necessary; you're throwing in context dependence where it isn't necessary. It's trivial to use things which are deliberately vague, like {ro srana}, or {ro srana prenu}, or just {le}, rather than something that is subtly vague like implicit {poi co'e}. The syllable addition isn't that large, the vagueness is up front, and you aren't bothering logicians. At the very least there should be a straightforward way to explicitly assign a value to the universe of discourse, if this solution is to be accepted. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:46 AM, wrote: > >> On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar wrote: >> > They seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really make >> sense. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a dog." but >> it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not how it would be used. >> I actually find it useful in conversation to have {ro da poi prenu} mean >> literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seems to be nearly >> identical in meaning. >> >> Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating >> literally from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. >> Translating {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you should have >> said at least "all X". "I see two animals. All are dogs" is just as valid >> literal translations as yours and, please, tell me that in English you see >> them as two unrelated sentences. In Italian, "Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." >> is a literal translation that is also absolutely comprehensible. I think >> those who know other Latin based languages have similar examples. >> >> I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to be >> of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentences. >> They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu that >> have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot and >> so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two >> unrelated sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has >> already been said. >> >> I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can >> handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural >> languages and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much >> more precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting >> place to visit but your mileage may vary. >> >> remod > > > One of the things I like most about Japanese is that it is a very > context-dependent language. The reason for it being so highly contextual is > because a lot of concepts tend to be horribly long things to say. Lojban has > this same tendency, especially when seeking precision, and so it behooves us > to shorten our bridi in the same manner. > > I could say > > {mi gaukla to ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e klama kei toi re gerku fu le cerni > snodzu to nu masno cadzu toi .i roda poi gerku me ra pe mi ku'o cmene > la.bernerd. fa'u la.djenivas.}, but that's really freaking long and takes > forever for me to express and everyone else to comprehend. So, instead, I'd > probably say something more like this: > > {mi gaukla re gerku fu le cerni snodzu .i roda cu cmene la.bernerd. fa'u > la.djenivas.} > > and leave it to context to determine what makes sense for {roda poi zo'e}. > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd150fc811bcd049d1e0289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why, though? It's not necessary; you're throwing in context depende= nce where it isn't necessary. It's trivial to use things which are = deliberately vague, like {ro srana}, or {ro srana prenu}, or just {le}, rat= her than something that is subtly vague like implicit {poi co'e}. The s= yllable addition isn't that large, the vagueness is up front, and you a= ren't bothering logicians.

At the very least there should be a straightforward way to explicitly a= ssign a value to the universe of discourse, if this solution is to be accep= ted.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 a= t 12:46 AM, <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Th= ey seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really make sens= e. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a dog.&quo= t; but it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not how it= would be used. I actually find it useful in conversation to have {ro da po= i prenu} mean literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seems to be= nearly identical in meaning.

Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating= literally from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. Tr= anslating {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you shoul= d have said at least "all X". "I see two animals. All are d= ogs" is just as valid literal translations as yours and, please, tell = me that in English you see them as two unrelated sentences. In Italian, &qu= ot;Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." is a literal translation that is als= o absolutely comprehensible. I think those who know other Latin based langu= ages have similar examples.

I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to b= e of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentenc= es. They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu = that have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot= and so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two un= related sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has alre= ady been said.

I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can = handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural langu= ages and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much more = precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting place to= visit but your mileage may vary.

remod
=A0
One of the things I like mo= st about Japanese is that it is a very context-dependent language. The reas= on for it being so highly contextual is because a lot of concepts tend to b= e horribly long things to say. Lojban has this same tendency, especially wh= en seeking precision, and so it behooves us to shorten our bridi in the sam= e manner.

I could say

{mi gaukla to ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e klama kei= toi re gerku fu le cerni snodzu to nu masno cadzu toi .i roda poi gerku me= ra pe mi ku'o cmene la.bernerd. fa'u la.djenivas.}, but that's= really freaking long and takes forever for me to express and everyone else= to comprehend. So, instead, I'd probably say something more like this:=

{mi gaukla re gerku fu le cerni snodzu .i roda cu cmene la.bernerd. fa&= #39;u la.djenivas.}

and leave it to context to determine what makes = sense for {roda poi zo'e}.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

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