From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCpqp_rBBoEFnDiQQ@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 25 09:45:43 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pt1jR-00021z-Sw; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:45:43 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf1431419gxk.16 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:45:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MXM8YFs/lXzzEp9xQlAJoS2j3GKEbsjr49eKpxxEHjE=; b=RpfB1TPeBese0IDq9j5CKtYeD3uSqgzjsNg+hykYnI90bsYzY7MNnJFn9x3y+LwK7N V4ELQ+1POVZ7dTsrAHArid+PtZ78m++b9+HNx6fDn03m/tSWYFrr6Jo8skJpS5adkdhc 87IFhhk3TsBqoH5dEEAxKgNMfadArjFEvqotY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=gJQL0ONfu9dpzvGWvKWbKWKsH2JliqErqwDLMOiHyZnVquBYMHDt3yEvnhnUEzpKJH Lnuofn6oJUzjydH3QUwYWrHzFsceV3aUPXVp3yGxKhcsly/v9lqP/mPu77uv4jiMg8Wh GOcxGsk3yA39lWl2cVEo4FDmHexESbAoxEhwU= Received: by 10.100.143.17 with SMTP id q17mr124046and.71.1298650409328; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.67.68 with SMTP id q4ls753158ibi.3.p; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr746306ibx.19.1298650407544; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr746305ibx.19.1298650407517; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f178.google.com (mail-iw0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si176323ibq.3.2011.02.25.08.13.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.178; Received: by mail-iw0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 9so1130751iwn.9 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.38.10 with SMTP id z10mr2988246ibd.107.1298650407349; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.198 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00504502d34a992077049d168774@google.com> References: <12056049.313.1298617316637.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prof15> <00504502d34a992077049d168774@google.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:13:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: -888834847 Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5fcd37ae08049d1d9ce5 --0022152d5fcd37ae08049d1d9ce5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:46 AM, wrote: > On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar wrote: > > They seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really make > sense. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a dog." but > it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not how it would be used. > I actually find it useful in conversation to have {ro da poi prenu} mean > literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seems to be nearly > identical in meaning. > > Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating literally > from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. Translating > {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you should have said at least > "all X". "I see two animals. All are dogs" is just as valid literal > translations as yours and, please, tell me that in English you see them as > two unrelated sentences. In Italian, "Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." is a > literal translation that is also absolutely comprehensible. I think those > who know other Latin based languages have similar examples. > > I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to be of > a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentences. > They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu that > have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot and > so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two > unrelated sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has > already been said. > > I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can > handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural > languages and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much > more precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting > place to visit but your mileage may vary. > > remod One of the things I like most about Japanese is that it is a very context-dependent language. The reason for it being so highly contextual is because a lot of concepts tend to be horribly long things to say. Lojban has this same tendency, especially when seeking precision, and so it behooves us to shorten our bridi in the same manner. I could say {mi gaukla to ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e klama kei toi re gerku fu le cerni snodzu to nu masno cadzu toi .i roda poi gerku me ra pe mi ku'o cmene la.bernerd. fa'u la.djenivas.}, but that's really freaking long and takes forever for me to express and everyone else to comprehend. So, instead, I'd probably say something more like this: {mi gaukla re gerku fu le cerni snodzu .i roda cu cmene la.bernerd. fa'u la.djenivas.} and leave it to context to determine what makes sense for {roda poi zo'e}. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d5fcd37ae08049d1d9ce5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:46 AM, <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrot= e:
> They seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't rea= lly make sense. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything = is a dog." but it doesn't make any more sense it English. That'= ;s not how it would be used. I actually find it useful in conversation to h= ave {ro da poi prenu} mean literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu= } seems to be nearly identical in meaning.

Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating= literally from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. Tr= anslating {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you shoul= d have said at least "all X". "I see two animals. All are d= ogs" is just as valid literal translations as yours and, please, tell = me that in English you see them as two unrelated sentences. In Italian, &qu= ot;Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." is a literal translation that is als= o absolutely comprehensible. I think those who know other Latin based langu= ages have similar examples.

I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to b= e of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentenc= es. They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu = that have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot= and so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two un= related sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has alre= ady been said.

I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can = handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural langu= ages and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much more = precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting place to= visit but your mileage may vary.

remod
=A0
One of the things I like most abo= ut Japanese is that it is a very context-dependent language. The reason for= it being so highly contextual is because a lot of concepts tend to be horr= ibly long things to say. Lojban has this same tendency, especially when see= king precision, and so it behooves us to shorten our bridi in the same mann= er.

I could say

{mi gaukla to ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e klama kei= toi re gerku fu le cerni snodzu to nu masno cadzu toi .i roda poi gerku me= ra pe mi ku'o cmene la.bernerd. fa'u la.djenivas.}, but that's= really freaking long and takes forever for me to express and everyone else= to comprehend. So, instead, I'd probably say something more like this:=

{mi gaukla re gerku fu le cerni snodzu .i roda cu cmene la.bernerd. fa&= #39;u la.djenivas.}

and leave it to context to determine what makes = sense for {roda poi zo'e}.


--
mu'o mi&= #39;e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

--
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