From lojban+bncCM-P6d3GHBDn_afqBBoE-6c8CA@googlegroups.com Wed Feb 02 17:03:53 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pknbw-0000M1-UG; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:53 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf503801wwb.16 for ; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ro2pgt8Aovsa4BLBl7H7amJN+3s/5Q33YMBRZi5ZQno=; b=F7Mj8r10ieaArmRzOXFNjSMmbelClD1a8YW+r5stbzFRnW3rm13W0lzzqqL2c3NK6J YdmHm7n0cRMC40iMUNy3x73wdU+d+wXRyxGRlfwZMv0oIug97/iewrmrU/u/SzkDpUH5 ReT11ezAKSCcgrgCNgnT4XCiDkgUCtQu7sqsI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cHstGxeRIAzd/YUM5rxPIStKHtW8OUbN+tb3lE6oh8VOKBMZXmURFud8aMo/PCQAnk cu4l4+Hv+BtocX15ooLhLHCi442/DtlxfR6CxyMwOgOXpr+TMVFKJQ4sacymQsIsSx6C ySORWldoeMaSOEEo0jXf0yguHycozAP/x4f2U= Received: by 10.216.185.204 with SMTP id u54mr1943441wem.8.1296695015790; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.207 with SMTP id y57ls520750weq.0.p; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.254.9 with SMTP id g9mr636845wes.13.1296695013835; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.254.9 with SMTP id g9mr636844wes.13.1296695013803; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m79si26651wej.15.2011.02.02.17.03.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by mail-ww0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 18so6834929wwi.4 for ; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.56.65 with SMTP id l43mr2443516wec.113.1296695011968; Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:03:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.245.9 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:03:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D498448.4090304@lojban.org> References: <4D498448.4090304@lojban.org> From: Leo Molas Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 22:03:00 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Idea: Levels To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:43 AM, John E Clifford wro= te: > On grammatical grasp. there are two old criteria. =A01. =A0Grasp of simpl= e sentence > structure - =A0can they get all the pieces in place in a simple sentence.= 2. how > many transformations from underlying (surface) structures (or to) does th= e most > complex sentence contain. =A0This latter is quantifiable and so proably i= s the > first. =A0 One might want to add some qualitative matters, since some > transformations are inherently more opaque than others and the notion of = "simple > sentence" is probably open to a range of interpretations. > > I have to say I'm a little confused by this two criteria (sorry o'anai). Could you explain those again? However, from what I understand from the comment " the notion of "simple sentence" is probably open to a range of interpretations", I might add that I know this idea has flaws, since with simple constructors you can write a difficult sentence. However, I won't expect that a classification gotten from a well specified level will be perfect. It would be a place to start. In other words, I expect that being part of a level is a necessary condition for a student of that level to understand it, but not sufficient. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Jameson Orndorff wro= te: > My new learning system will involve a level structure similar to what > you've said. It's in the works. One of my inspirations were the wave lessons (from which I've had and I am studying from). Perhaps we could merge the ideas. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > Leo Molas wrote: > > This actually exists, in a sense, but I did the work more than 20 years a= go > before there was much actual usage, and no doubt people have different > opinions on how to divide things. > > The gismu list was sortable by textbook lesson number. =A0This is the old > draft textbook > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Gismu+by+lesson > > The lesson numbers are found in fixed columns (I think 158-159) in the > baselines list: > http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt > > The grammar was divided into 6 levels of difficulty, which are embedded i= n > Nora's random sentence generator. =A0(The link on the "random sentence > generator" page seems to be broken, but I am sure it is on lojban.org > somewhere. =A0I revised the data for the 1994 grammar a few years ago, an= d had > the program recompiled under Visual Basic - I don't know if that revision > made it to the lojban.org website, but I have it.) > > The levels, based on the outline for that original 1989 draft textbook, > cover through chapters 3, 6, 10, 13, all lessons, and a nasty level that = has > enhanced chances of unlikely grammar structures. =A0Only 6 of the draft > textbook lessons were ever written, and John Cowan reorganized those into= 22 > lessons around 1992. > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DOld+Draft+Textbook > > in more or less the same order, but the designed chapter numbers are no > longer meaningful for that text. Somewhere, I have the original outline t= hat > lays out what I planned to include in each chapter. > > lojbab > It would be great to take a look of that outline, and/or the contents for each level. However, I'm not asking you to search it, since I know how hard is to found a 15 year old paper :D. I started this thread to know the opinion of lojbanistan about the idea, knowing it's already been discused, but not in the exact way I described (I mean, with very detailed grammar posibilities for each level). If you think it would be useful, it would be a good project for me and whoever is interested. Actually, in some way, if Nora created a sentence generator, the old lojbab's levels are what I thought about, and may serve for a text classificator. It would be a good place to start. But again, I'd like to know if you would find this useful first. mu'o mi'e leos --=20 My Lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com/ My personal =B5blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.