From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDviqzsBBoEwm4FIQ@googlegroups.com Thu Mar 24 01:49:03 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q2gE0-0008Nx-4Z; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:49:03 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf10061815wya.16 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qWyDgg5dLrRep07z+CIT+xOkZISI8Y9kOlV55Y8ANBM=; b=2ULGbwSpEPg6fpjHlNXcSuRyX41pt91cXv0Kx7KWd0gquX8/xfRZ/H389ag4uxX1Um 2fjPZddu/MPYSVdbfSa4xEaUF+Kwi/sjQNyUA5JJ1GuqCvNY6nCzv2yBP/uoBYoMY2kA 0lrcmTXG7q0bnJlqw4kbrah1yfqrIW1FGJpIQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=XdG8f9ZJ1YQ4vK65IGl7B9MgN9NqVEayF/TwbciTxZsatyXZDIXK0E30TOypBSnnC0 CznujNxAbMvV2dXNL2c+YKw44aKXVJTocPLgmY3pG/M7nLTiJhsMezDjdr7MlpVqrfPX v9VUMp0usXesPt9EkmsW3FtL9hMvZLjMVh0VM= Received: by 10.216.69.74 with SMTP id m52mr84075wed.25.1300956527657; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.2.143 with SMTP id 15ls183507wbj.3.p; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.80 with SMTP id c16mr436003wbc.19.1300956526473; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.80 with SMTP id c16mr436002wbc.19.1300956526455; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g17si3389235wbe.7.2011.03.24.01.48.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by wyb34 with SMTP id 34so11308191wyb.15 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.143.96 with SMTP id k74mr417494wej.100.1300956526329; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.80.207 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:48:46 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] I'm sure I've missed it but, "ko" for "You and Me" ... From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 24 March 2011 01:56, .arpis. wrote: > {doi mi'o ko klama le xotli} - {doi} explicitly assigns {do} to be {mi'o}, > so {ko} commands the speaker and the listener to go to the hotel; similarly > {ma'a} for the entire group. (gejyspa posted this before I finished my > reply) I'm not sure that {doi} *explicitly assigns* {do} to anything. {do} excludes all non-{do} KOhA3 except {ko}, so it can't really be turned into or substitute for {mi'o}. {do} refers only to the listener, and {mi'o} refers to both the listener and the speaker; these cmavo are semantically distinct by definition. If a command or suggestion is intended for the listener *and* the speaker, more than {do} are to be involved in the first place. What's at stake is the indexicality not of {do} but of that which is commanded or suggested to be the agent of a particular action or event (e.g. going to the hotel). The fundamental linguistic element of a command or suggestion is "mood": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood In Lojban, this is most expressible through UI and COI. Lojban has this advantage in expressing a mood in a more grammatically distinct and isomorphic manner than in many other languages. The English sequence of words "you do this" can be indicative or interrogative or jussive / imperative or something else, depending on non-isomorphic elements such as intonation, punctuation, etc., whereas Lojban can lexically differentiate them with {ju'a}, {xu}, {a'o}, {e'i}, and so on. {ko} is an oddball -- a sumti charged with some mood. According to BPFK, it's "an imperative pro-sumti for "you," the person or people that the speaker is addressing": http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Personal+Pro-sumti On top of being imperative more than suggestive in its function, {ko} by definition excludes non-{do}, so it doesn't appear useful in a less-than-imperative intended-for-you-and-me utterance such as "Let's go to the hotel". (For that, we can resort to the more clear-cut and thus arguably more Lojbanic options such as {e'u mi'o klama le xotli}.) On 24 March 2011 01:43, Jonathan Jones wrote: > ko is not inherently singular, in the same way that English "you" isn't. (In > the old days, "you" was plural, and "thou" was singular, but "thou" fell out > of use. > > None of the pro-sumti are inherently singular or plural. do is "the > listener(s)", mi is "the speaker(s)", etc. True. What differentiates {do} from {mi'o}, for instance, isn't the number of entities but the combination of different sorts of entities. {do} excludes "the speaker (1st person)" & "others (3rd person)" and thus differs also from {mi'o}, {do'o}, etc. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.