From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCa1tPsBBoE8OqYzQ@googlegroups.com Thu Mar 31 13:59:23 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q5Oxa-0003MD-UM; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:22 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf5561832gxk.16 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bRHpzCVBFytDKJI0iQPMlWCXtc1hzycj7pP9k1wbjNw=; b=X68lwUHjQJQnH8uWyjbNO/zZFaIFTshnXmtHVioQxrm/+qyrqF0ePUwGH3FChpAJd5 nfEAB2S7sPPG+PSGqso8SKif+K7mRd0pxy+P5aR/1CQ2Wtlo7mINNF/M/FTWj68rtEXJ DW2b7WxbBlQonpZkhrKpiQ0F7Kut1DUhIXxaQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3NM+N+Idc4BuKsHXg/Mz8Gy05wMnWjSIPNG8haszTgEyZv/ujqJb2BE6MOPHdl1XzU /yeLTYEWog/MHwk6Ki4mPj2ummUZbpniYC7ZMGxpaqtT7r9kVk7GSGhm1Y5uKA+JBMMa ICSer3Bdfo21evbBuoAx/5IIN8JcwRXc9iEzE= Received: by 10.101.24.4 with SMTP id b4mr486033anj.35.1301605146912; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls465831ibe.0.p; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.42.87 with SMTP id r23mr1514292ibe.9.1301605145936; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.42.87 with SMTP id r23mr1514291ibe.9.1301605145907; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f176.google.com (mail-iy0-f176.google.com [209.85.210.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b26si153023ibq.4.2011.03.31.13.59.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.176; Received: by mail-iy0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 1so3942567iym.21 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.139.4 with SMTP id e4mr4074003icu.184.1301605145505; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.42.173.71 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Extensibility of vocatives (do'a non-selbri) From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: Jonathan Jones X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba21234755ee7e049fcd9076 --90e6ba21234755ee7e049fcd9076 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But that big tanru is still just a selbri. I'm thinking of a cmavo that allows, to its right, a non-selbri and modifies it, resulting in a non-selbri. if {zei'ei} is the cmavo mu'a {co'o} is a parting, while {nicte zei'ei co'o} is a parting in some way related to night (said at night, for the night, etc) {zasti ui} comments on something's existence and remarks that the speaker is happy about it, while {zasti zei'ei ui} would be an attitudinal expression of happiness, somehow vaguely tied to existence. {xadni ze'ei ui} would be something similar in meaning to {uiro'o} mu'anai As far as I know, there is no way to do something like this in lojban, probably for good reason. But the idea intrigues me. On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> Is there an experimental cmavo which binds two things into a tanru-like >> state? sa'unai something which takes the grammar of the right word, with the >> meaning modified in some vague way by the selbri to its left? >> > > I doubt it. > > >> Would we want one? > > > I doubt it. > > >> need one? >> > > I doubt it. > > All you need for a tanru is two selbri (or more). And everything in Lojban > either is or can be made into a selbri. Put two selbri next to each other, > and it's a tanru. > > Here's an example of a very big tanru created using all of the selbri > conversions I know of: > > me by. me'u cimei xamoi pimucu'o nu'a su'i piresi'e ki'ova'e klama bratce > kolbasa me la.pandas. me lonu cadzu kei me lu .i tirxu .i tirxu li'u me zoi > gy. {me} is probably the most useful converter .gy. > > >> On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> {nicte ze'ei co'o} doesn't even really make sense if you ignore English; >>> it means "night", the predicate, but has the grammar of selma'o COI. That >>> is, the semantics of the second word are completely ignored, only its >>> grammar is significant. >>> >>> Personally I'd just say {co'o xamgu sipna} or something, I think. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:42 AM, .arpis. wrote: >>> >>>> It all started with the simple question of someone asking me if {nicte >>>> xamgu} was a valid translation of "Good night." >>>> >>>> Sometimes, going off the deep end is fun. >>>> >>>> I recognize (or at least understand it to be the case) that selbri are >>>> as extensible as I could possibly want them. >>>> >>>> Since selbri can be converted into sumti, sumti are also as extensible >>>> as I could want. >>>> >>>> Is there a way that I can express a vocative which is a night parting? >>>> A water parting? A death parting? >>>> >>>> Is {ze'ei} the accepted way to do this, and are {nicte ze'ei co'o}, etc. >>>> valid uses? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba21234755ee7e049fcd9076 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But that big tanru is still just a selbri.=A0 I'm thinking of a cmavo t= hat allows, to its right, a non-selbri and modifies it, resulting in a non-= selbri.

if {zei'ei} is the cmavo
mu'a
{co'o} is a = parting, while {nicte zei'ei co'o} is a parting in some way related= to night (said at night, for the night, etc)
{zasti ui} comments on something's existence and remarks that the speak= er is happy about it, while {zasti zei'ei ui} would be an attitudinal e= xpression of happiness, somehow vaguely tied to existence.
{xadni ze'= ;ei ui} would be something similar in meaning to {uiro'o}
mu'anai

As far as I know, there is no way to do something like t= his in lojban, probably for good reason.=A0 But the idea intrigues me.
<= br>
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail= .com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Alex Rozenshte= yn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there an experimental cmavo which binds two things into a tanru-like sta= te? sa'unai something which takes the grammar of the right word, with t= he meaning modified in some vague way by the selbri to its left?

I doubt it.
=A0
Would we want one?

I doubt it.
=A0
need one?
<= div>
I doubt it.

All you need for a tanru is two selbri (or more). An= d everything in Lojban either is or can be made into a selbri. Put two selb= ri next to each other, and it's a tanru.

Here's an example o= f a very big tanru created using all of the selbri conversions I know of:
me by. me'u cimei xamoi pimucu'o nu'a su'i piresi'e= ki'ova'e klama bratce kolbasa me la.pandas. me lonu cadzu kei me l= u .i tirxu .i tirxu li'u me zoi gy. {me} is probably the most useful co= nverter .gy.
=A0
On Thu, Mar 3= 1, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
{nicte ze'ei co'o} doesn't even really make sense if you ignore= English; it means "night", the predicate, but has the grammar of= selma'o COI. That is, the semantics of the second word are completely = ignored, only its grammar is significant.

Personally I'd just say {co'o xamgu sipna} or something, I thin= k.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:42 AM, .arpis. <rpg= lover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
=
It all started with the simple question of someone asking m= e if {nicte xamgu} was a valid translation of "Good night."

Sometimes, going off the deep end is fun.

I recognize (or at lea= st understand it to be the case) that selbri are as extensible as I could p= ossibly want them.

Since selbri can be converted into sumti, sumti are also as extensible = as I could want.

Is there a way that I can express a vocative which = is a night parting?=A0 A water parting?=A0 A death parting?

Is {ze&#= 39;ei} the accepted way to do this, and are {nicte ze'ei co'o}, etc= . valid uses?

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
=

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'= ;e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= ;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
<= div class=3D"h5">

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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