From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCjrIbtBBoEN9kjRg@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 10 04:36:22 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8swD-0002h7-1e; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:21 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf5062461wya.16 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LaVNVkVuIFCiABlF8UBXXAUQWI0z58ebQU5Vu1JUvzo=; b=FbPFB0QHLzzdu6M36SAZ7HH0uqDVR+x0tpI9Ah6+HoPO4tfEyT9eyjlJ8v7VbEEMxF 6VtMQUjQSVTqYffY4iOY27RaknRIcwo5dh0XjkZ22gc/CNBK/zJZ21QXU/jhDu66PRHb 3a9htmOb9r5cqTAbmoj4Q/u8lah0NeyjgtKdg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=0qk46GSqgp6vVGTBzlYv6wLKPi92DZ92tsdlUquR3gumPbna4iTZfG38J9O83qrTvY lXbg21djovGBdCdvsnpugKHNuSqY9thAdCepQ3h8gva4hpxvjkvOp/LVRO0NyRI9yOyG dnQjNLrxBeGDqukjBiBAlX9IietHPi9/DridA= Received: by 10.216.122.69 with SMTP id s47mr347638weh.13.1302435363241; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.139.31 with SMTP id c31ls1943664wbu.0.p; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.5 with SMTP id b5mr263433wbb.24.1302435361936; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.5 with SMTP id b5mr263432wbb.24.1302435361921; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f54.google.com (mail-ww0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f14si1335060wbu.1.2011.04.10.04.36.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.54; Received: by wwd20 with SMTP id 20so5606235wwd.23 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.139.19 with SMTP id c19mr4143388wbu.13.1302435361757; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.73] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o23sm2753664wbc.10.2011.04.10.04.35.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 04:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4DA19614.9040908@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 12:35:48 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <501670.94789.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DA0C9C0.6040102@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ivo Doko, On 10/04/2011 09:29: > On 9 April 2011 22:14, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> I have trouble with the "ml" in mlatu... > > Well that one shouldn't be a problem. You know how to say "bl" (as in > "black"). Now just instead of "black" say "mlack". I'm serious - "m" > and "b" are almost the same phoneme, the trick is the same. > > If that doesn't work for you there's a different approach: > The trick is to, before you say "m" (while your lips are closed), > position your tongue as if you're going to say "L" (because you *are* > going to say it). Then, as you say "m" and open up your lips, just > pull off your tongue to say "L". > > Like I said, the same trick. You're kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter at all if a Lojban spea= ker has trouble saying [zb] or [ml], because /z(%)b/ and /m(%)l/ can be rea= lized not only as [zb] and [ml] but also as [z =A3 b] and [m =A3 l], where = "=A3" stands for whatever the realization of % is. Furthermore, relevant considerations go beyond mere articulatory difficulty= to include also acoustic distinctiveness. For example, even if [ml] is eas= y to say, it might be hard for either speaker or hearer to reliably disting= uish /lemlatu/ [lemlatu] from /lemblatu/ [lemblatu], but much easier to dis= tinguish /lem%latu/ [lemylatu] from /lemblatu/ [lemblatu]. Likewise for /ns= / vs /nts/ and other clusters; judicious use of the buffer vowel can mitiga= te some of the failings of Lojban phonology. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.